10 man strict; clear explanation and clarification

[Imriela]

I've started a guild; myself and my co-GM have decided we want to make it a 10-man strict. We understand what it means and all this, but we are having a hard time figuring out how to word it for putting onto our guild website for those that are interested and want to know what exactly if means. I don't want to keep updating the post with every new content patch for specific examples, I'd like to somehow word it so that it lays down the concept of it without current specific examples.


After talking to the other 10 man strict guild, VoA 25 is allowed and I'm not really sure why this is... it drops the 264 T10 that is from 25 man ICC tokens.
I understand that doing past 25 content is also allowed as long as the ilvl of the items in said 25 man is lower than that of the current 10 man (like we could join 25 man ToC or 25 Onyxia PUGs, but not 25 ToGC). Or this is what I got from talking to some people in a 10 man strict guild on our server. If this is not the case and this info is wrong, please correct me and let me know.

[Eisen]

I've started a guild; myself and my co-GM have decided we want to make it a 10-man strict. We understand what it means and all this, but we are having a hard time figuring out how to word it for putting onto our guild website for those that are interested and want to know what exactly if means. I don't want to keep updating the post with every new content patch for specific examples, I'd like to somehow word it so that it lays down the concept of it without current specific examples.


After talking to the other 10 man strict guild, VoA 25 is allowed and I'm not really sure why this is... it drops the 264 T10 that is from 25 man ICC tokens.
I understand that doing past 25 content is also allowed as long as the ilvl of the items in said 25 man is lower than that of the current 10 man (like we could join 25 man ToC or 25 Onyxia PUGs, but not 25 ToGC). Or this is what I got from talking to some people in a 10 man strict guild on our server. If this is not the case and this info is wrong, please correct me and let me know.

To be honest, I'm not sure myself what you mean.

What I presume though, is it's something like what my guild does. All relevant 10 man content (the weekly raid, ToC, ToGC, VoA, and ICC) are considered guild only. You do not get yourself saved to another group for those, without an OK from an officer. All 25 man content, however, is open to be pugged if you like.

Would that wording fit what you need?

[Imriela]

No, because PUGing 25 man ICC is not currently allowed in a 25 man strict.

Here is what I have come up with as an explanation for my guild site so far:

What does it mean? What's the difference?

10 man strict means we run 10 mans with 10 man gear, we do not allow any gear from current 25 man content. To enforce this and allow us to be tracked as a 10 man strict, none of our guild members are allowed to run current 25 man content. There are no exceptions to this.

If you want to run ICC25 (even in PUGs), do not apply to this guild. If you have run ICC25 in PUGs before, also don't apply as we will be unable to accept you. If you are truly interested, wait or reapply after the next content patch when current 25 content is allowed to be run.


Example:
ICC10 drops iLvl 251 Gear and Frost Emblems. This means you can run things that drop gear equivalent or lower than 251. Onyxia 10 and ToC 10 both drop 232, so that's obviously fine. Onyxia 25 and ToC 25 drop 245, so that's fine too. (However you will have to PUG those). ToGC (ToC Heroic) 10 drops 245, so that is perfectly fine as well. ToGC 25, however, drops 258, so that is off limits. Since ICC 10 drops Frost Emblems, the 264 Frost Emblem gear is fair game, as is the BoE 264 gear.



From Guild Ox:
"What are the 10-man 'strict' rankings?

The 10-man strict rankings show the achievements of pure 10-man raiding guilds. A 'pure' 10-man raiding guild is one that does not participate in 25m progression content. We recognize that 25-man guilds or guilds that regularly participate in 25m pug runs often have a distinct advantage since they can gear up at accelerated rates and move faster through 10-man content. Consequently, our 10-man strict rankings exclude guilds which access any 25-man content that offers higher ilvl gear than what the current 10-man normal content provides. If you are a 10m guild that has members which want to run 25 man pugs then the 'strict' classification is not for you.

What is the 10-man 'strict' criteria?

Guilds will be excluded when they earn any Icecrown Citadel (ICC) 25 normal kills or any TotGC 25 hard-mode kills. Guilds must also have their 10M Progress World Rank be better than (lower than) their 25M Progress World Rank.

But ICC 25 normal drops the same iLvl gear as ICC 10 hard mode, why can't we run ICC 25 normal and stay 10m strict?

It is true that ICC 25 normal drops 264 iLvl gear and this is the same iLvl at ICC 10 hard mode. However, guilds can gear up at twice the rate if they run ICC 25 normal and this is clearly an unfair advantage - GuildOx ranks guilds based on the rate at which they earn achievements/kills. Yes, we understand that you can get iLvl 264 gear from Emblem vendors and other sources, but we have drawn the line at ICC 25 normal."

[owlcapwn]

did you figure out if voa disqualifies you from 10 man strict? because if it doesn't then whats the point since you can get you easy tier from that? and if it does disqualify you how will you find good recruits who haven't run the new voa?

[gacktt]

Seems like a good way of gimping your progression, though I'm thankful they nerf content to balance around 10m strict guilds(well not really), makes hardmodes easier.

[Imriela]

did you figure out if voa disqualifies you from 10 man strict? because if it doesn't then whats the point since you can get you easy tier from that? and if it does disqualify you how will you find good recruits who haven't run the new voa?

VoA does not disqualify you on 10 man strict. I did look into that.

Seems like a good way of gimping your progression, though I'm thankful they nerf content to balance around 10m strict guilds(well not really), makes hardmodes easier.

It's not gimping progression, it's just a different type of progression. If I may quote a raid leader of another 10 man strict guild:

"Currently, most players look at 10-man raids as the practice zones for 25-man guilds on progression and their playground on off-days. What people tend to forget is that 10-man raids are balanced around 10-man gear. The progression pathway in the current tier should be: TotC-10 > TotGC-10 > ICC-10 > ICC-10-HM. Almost everybody has PUGged TotC-25 since the release, and almost every serious 25-man guild has cleared at least part of TotGC-25. Therefore, almost every serious raider entering ICC-10 is wearing ilvl 245 and higher gear. During ICC-10 progress, these raiders are clearing ICC-25 bosses, too; therefore, their overgearing increases even further. We progress through the 10-man raids at the level Blizzard balanced them, and therefore the content is a lot more challenging than most of the player base realizes."

[redneck6979]

I am in a strict 10 man guild. VoA, Ony, Naxx, Ulduar and Toc 25 are ok. ICC25 and ToGC 25 will knock you out of the 10 strict ratings.

This is from GuildOx.com:

What are the 10-man 'strict' rankings?

The 10-man strict rankings show the achievements of pure 10-man raiding guilds. A 'pure' 10-man raiding guild is one that does not participate in 25m progression content. We recognize that 25-man guilds or guilds that regularly participate in 25m pug runs often have a distinct advantage since they can gear up at accelerated rates and move faster through 10-man content. Consequently, our 10-man strict rankings exclude guilds which access any 25-man content that offers higher ilvl gear than what the current 10-man normal content provides. If you are a 10m guild that has members which want to run 25 man pugs then the 'strict' classification is not for you.

What is the 10-man 'strict' criteria?

Guilds will be excluded when they earn any Icecrown Citadel (ICC) 25 normal kills or any TotGC 25 hard-mode kills. Guilds must also have their 10M Progress World Rank be better than (lower than) their 25M Progress World Rank.

We have added a special trigger for the ICC 25 normal kills that will exclude a guild from strict rankings when 8 players achieve it over time. For example, if your guild pugs ICC 25 normal then you will be excluded from the strict rankings when a total of 8 players in your guild participate in the Lord Marrowgar 25 normal kill. Please ensure you discourage your guild members from participating in any ICC 25 normal and TotGC 25 hard-mode runs if you wish to remain on the strict rankings. Also be sure minimize the recruitment of players that have previously achieved these kills since they will contribute to the guild total, regardless of when they achieved it. VoA 25 and Onyxia 25 are exempt from the criteria and can be run without risking your 10m strict rankings.

Special tip: If you wish to remain on the 10-man strict list over the long term then be sure to have your guild stay within the criteria - we are unable to remove earned achievements once they are in the GuildOx database. Also note that the criteria will change as new content is released. The best approach to future-proof your strict ranking is to advise your guild members not to run any 25-man content that features higher iLevel gear when compared to the current 10-man normal content. We reserve the right to tighten the criteria at any time if we judge that guilds are 'gaming' the strict rankings.

But ICC 25 normal drops the same iLvl gear as ICC 10 hard mode, why can't we run ICC 25 normal and stay 10m strict?

It is true that ICC 25 normal drops 264 iLvl gear and this is the same iLvl at ICC 10 hard mode. However, guilds can gear up at twice the rate if they run ICC 25 normal and this is clearly an unfair advantage - GuildOx ranks guilds based on the rate at which they earn achievements/kills. Yes, we understand that you can get iLvl 264 gear from Emblem vendors and other sources, but we have drawn the line at ICC 25 normal.

[Imriela]

Hi redneck. Thanks for that, however if you look at post 3, I put up what I have as my explanation for my guild site, and it does quote GuildOx.

[redneck6979]

lol, I must have missed that sorry for re-posting it. GL in staying 10 strict it is a bit of work sometimes.

[Angwel]

UGH I hate having to explain 10 man strict raiding to people so I feel your pain. Most people either get it or dont there tends to be little in between. My guild is 2nd on our server for Strict 10 man raiding (using guildox). I tend to have several explanations when asked about it. lets call them the short, the medium, the long, and the long version shortened.

I will not bore you by going into each one heavily but they way i use them may help you. The short which is "We only raid current 10 man encounters and have to complete them using the gear we can get from non 25 man raiding." is used for the random question from someone trying to recruit me to a 25 man slot or the whisper asking me what I mean when I say 10 man strict.

The medium which is about a paragraph is when the short version gets a positive response with follow up questions.

The long version is quoting from guildox and going into details about our specific guild structure.

The long version shortened is just the link to guildox's rules.

Really it depends alot on your guild and what you need the responses for. I have an alt in another guild that does 25 man raids but has a 10 man division obviously not listed on the guildox site but the responses from that group tend to differ alot from my mains guild.

[owlcapwn]

VoA does not disqualify you on 10 man strict. I did look into that.

whats the point of doing 10man strict then? i mean whats the difference from getting a sanc piece from voa vs running a 25 pug to deathbringer and getting a sanc token? Seems like alot of the guild progression in 10 mans would depend on getting lucky in voa. Since it would take a while to get your tier with badges just doing 10 mans each week.

[Muffin Man]

did you figure out if voa disqualifies you from 10 man strict? because if it doesn't then whats the point since you can get you easy tier from that? and if it does disqualify you how will you find good recruits who haven't run the new voa?

Apologies if someone else answered this.

But the reason Voa/25 is kosher is because the tier gear from there drops in 10 man hardmode. Which is slightly different than saying icc/25 normal mode is the same ilvl. In this case it's *identical* to something you could get in 10 man. And it's enough of a random occurrence that you don't have the gearing up twice as fast (you could argue that you can then get the higher tier stuff before hardmode are unlocked though, but it's still rare).

[Bodasafa]

whats the point of doing 10man strict then? i mean whats the difference from getting a sanc piece from voa vs running a 25 pug to deathbringer and getting a sanc token? Seems like alot of the guild progression in 10 mans would depend on getting lucky in voa. Since it would take a while to get your tier with badges just doing 10 mans each week.

Not really. First off VoA gear is very random. Second if your in a 10 strict guild your probably pugging it, meaning now way to prioritize gear to guild members. On top of that at best your going to get 1 tier item at 264, not even enough to get a 2 pc bonus.

The odds are really stacked against you to get even just one tier item. Hardly a huge advantage by any means.

[owlcapwn]

Not really. First off VoA gear is very random. Second if your in a 10 strict guild your probably pugging it, meaning now way to prioritize gear to guild members. On top of that at best your going to get 1 tier item at 264, not even enough to get a 2 pc bonus.

The odds are really stacked against you to get even just one tier item. Hardly a huge advantage by any means.

youre right its not a huge advantage and thats why it should be dq'd from 10 man strict. Just running 10 man stuff it would take over 8 weeks of FULL clears to get you 4pc which is need for parts of some fights, makes tanking LK alot easier. Like i said in an earlier post you progression would pretty much hinge on getting lucky drops from voa

[Astemus]

We decided recently to stop enforcing the strict ranking in our guild. There are a few reasons. Most of these will apply to you as a new guild starting.

First, we missed the boat on Ulduar due to summertime lag in attendance, so we only did a few hardmodes right before ToC came out. We were pretty competitive in ToC, but due to lacking ALL those achievements in Ulduar, we were far behind the curve. Getting higher in the ranking would have required us to go back to ulduar to do the HM we missed, which wasn't very popular, and depending on how many nights you raid, would limit current progression.

Second, we had to be very selective about who we recruited. Remember, once you get several people in the guild with 25 man achievements, you lose your ranking until the regulations are relaxed, and now that is waiting for cataclysm.

Third, it put a strain on recruitment in the first place, due to having to explain the rules and people wondering why they can't go pug ICC25.

Finally, it was just limiting some people who were eager to help the guild by earning gear themselves on non-raid nights. Remember, if you are a 10 man strict guild, there is nothing your members can pug (besides the voa lottery) and get upgrades if you are in ICC.

So the officers got together and we decided it was best to forget enforcing this rule. There are some situations where it works great (long time 10 man guilds or very competitive guilds that don't want to get very big) but you have alot of work ahead of you.

[Eraser]

Welcome to the ranks!

Being 10man strict something our guild does by choice and necessity. Being on a low pop server, there is only allowance for one competitive 25man guild at a time (we've seen something like 20 or so guilds try and fail over the year), so we're pretty happy just staying 10man strict.

To describe 10man strict, you have to use the guild ox explanation(as I'm pretty sure they're the only ones who measure it, at least they're the ones who've supported it the longest). However, in lay mans terms just means that you're not allowed to run anything that drops ilevel gear equal too or higher than current content.

Recruiting wise, it is pretty relaxed, you're allowed 7 people to have run content breaching the boundaries set. At 8 people you get kicked out. While it's not a perfect system, it works...for now.

[Rampart]

"you're allowed 7 people to have run content breaching the boundaries set." So basically, you're saying that 10 man strict is a reason to gimp 3 people in your raid? Tbh, this whole 10 man strict sounds pretty foolish to me, especially with the ease of attaining gear and pugging (which includes 25m ICC and 25m ToGC).

[Eraser]

It's not gimping 3 players so much as gimping 10 in order to view 10man content with the gear it was designed for, the fact that they allow for 7 people means that recruiting is easier. They have already stated that if people start abusing this system, i.e.allowing 7 people to do ICC 25m regularly, they will stricken the rules.

Majority of people don't play for gear, but rather the experience. I don't think some people understand that, not that I'm pointing fingers - a lot of people think 10man strict guilds are stupid, when they're not, they're just a different playstyle.

[Gretchin]

I don't think there is a need to reinvent the wheel every time you need a wheel. And I am a fan of clear direct language. So why not just go something along the lines of:

"We are a 10 man strict raiding guild. That means we only raid 10 man raids and that you cannot do any 25 man of the two currently highest tiers with the exception of Vault of Archavon wich you may PUG if you want to."