+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: T10 4p or ofset for disc

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2

    T10 4p or ofset for disc

    as the title says, what should i aim for, t104p or ofset?
    the 5% increese shield is nice, but the stats is so much better on the ofset parts.
    so what should i do.

    thx for any helpful information

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    159
    Both the 2pc and 4pc T10 set bonuses are based around raid healing nether will give you any noticeable gains when tank healing, but as I said raid healing with the set bonuses will bump you up quite a bit.

    So it depends on which way you play your disc spec though after you start to get mostly all 264 gear you will have enough stats on other items to balance out the crappy stats on the T10s. So I would suggest going for the off set items first then later on picking up the Tier set parts as you start getting sanctified drops.
    Remember though the 5% shield increase from T10 only affects PW:shield and not Divine Aegis so the ICC buff when it was at 5% was more powerful then 4pc T10.


    I'm a tank healer mainly and I have not used more then 2pc of the T10 so wait about to see if anyone else here has any input on the subject before spending your badges.
    Last edited by CoolNitro; 05-05-2010 at 04:03 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    2
    im doing both raidhealing and tank healing. i dont like either 2p or the 4p bonus.
    so i dont know if the 5% is worth it.

    but i will wait for more coments

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Notlob its a palindrome
    Posts
    736
    You can't get enough spell power gain from off set to even get close to the 5% boost to pw:s

    http://penancepriest.blogspot.com/20...alculator.html

    From this say you theoritcally get 4000 spellpower from offset and only 3721 from tier (279 sp difference) then your shield absorbs would be equal however the difference in spellpower from tier to offset is more likely going to be closer to a maximum of 100 at which point the difference will favour the set bonus at 284 more per shield.

    Note more often then not the stats gained via offset are rarely spellpower gains with the exception of legs (extra socket),gloves (extra socket at BIS but only marginal more sp). So more likely a difference of 50 spell power to 4 set which is quite a big difference in shield absorption (364 at my values) and then you account that it scales and ive used a very static ammount of spellpower.

    Regarding tank healing; disc as a tank healer in 25 man raids is archaic. PRIESTS are NOT tank healers anymore any other class can do it better if its 10 man who the feck cares if your set bonus isn't ideal for tank healing your still shielding alot or should be...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki View Post
    Regarding tank healing; disc as a tank healer in 25 man raids is archaic. PRIESTS are NOT tank healers anymore any other class can do it better if its 10 man who the feck cares if your set bonus isn't ideal for tank healing your still shielding alot or should be...
    If your argument is that Disc Priests cannot keep a tank alive in current 25man content, I strongly disagree.

    If your argument is that you have multiple Holy Paladins in your raid group and the Disc Priest is better utilized for their raid shielding abilities, then I agree.

    @the OP: Get both. Inevitably you'll have to do both tank healing and raid shielding at some point in your healing career, and it's helpful to have a set optimized for each role. Emblems of Frost are a dime a dozen.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    89
    When the 4p bonus was originally changed I grabbed 251 tier fro the vendor and ungemmed/enchanted my PW:S was absorbing more per shield than it was with the 264 offset (badge and 25 man drops). I found it absorbing more though looking at WoL for the tests and looking at recount and skada. Again, that was with *ungemmed and enchanted* 251 tier, I upgraded the 251 tier to 264 and gemmed it and I noticed a huge jump in my absorbs from each shield. I think the 4p is pretty much a must have for disc, but thats just IMO.
    The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason. Talga Vassternich.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Notlob its a palindrome
    Posts
    736
    Quote Originally Posted by NewfieDave View Post
    If your argument is that Disc Priests cannot keep a tank alive in current 25man content, I strongly disagree.

    If your argument is that you have multiple Holy Paladins in your raid group and the Disc Priest is better utilized for their raid shielding abilities, then I agree.

    @the OP: Get both. Inevitably you'll have to do both tank healing and raid shielding at some point in your healing career, and it's helpful to have a set optimized for each role. Emblems of Frost are a dime a dozen.
    Every other healer is better built too handle tank healing likewise a guild not having sufficient holy paladins is a guild on the brink of ruin because they have failed in recruitment and structure and yes disc should be relegated to shield spam and I don't believe one should ever put a disc priest on tank healing but chances are you are not in a position with skilled players...

    I'd like to point out that tank healing is not a joke in heroic modes and disc would battle there regardless of gear or skill level....
    Last edited by Nicki; 05-05-2010 at 01:38 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    159
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki View Post
    Every other healer is better built too handle tank healing likewise a guild not having sufficient holy paladins is a guild on the brink of ruin because they have failed in recruitment and structure and yes disc should be relegated to shield spam and I don't believe one should ever put a disc priest on tank healing but chances are you are not in a position with skilled players...

    I'd like to point out that tank healing is not a joke in heroic modes and disc would battle there regardless of gear or skill level....

    I can't speak for disc vs heroic 25 mans but as far as 10 man heroics go I have been tank healing without any problems, sure enough there are some fights like saurfang that having a pally is vastly better then a disc priest because of the marks and beacon but as for the other fights no issues at all as long as you trust the people you are with and they trust you.


    Anyways to the op if you believe you stand a good chance of upgrading the tier set items to 264 in a short time then go for them, as someone said before having mostly all 264 items the difference in stats of offsets vs tier is negligible.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki View Post
    Every other healer is better built too handle tank healing likewise a guild not having sufficient holy paladins is a guild on the brink of ruin because they have failed in recruitment and structure and yes disc should be relegated to shield spam and I don't believe one should ever put a disc priest on tank healing but chances are you are not in a position with skilled players...

    I'd like to point out that tank healing is not a joke in heroic modes and disc would battle there regardless of gear or skill level....

    This ^^Tanks literally get hit like trucks. Shields get absorbed instantly, flash heal is rarely strong enough and Penance has a CD. Can you keep a tank up? Potentially. Will it get dicy? Def. Is every other class stronger at it? Totally. Disc shines as damage mitigation. We are the only class who can do it. Why not place people where they are strongest?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki View Post
    Every other healer is better built too handle tank healing ... I don't believe one should ever put a disc priest on tank healing but chances are you are not in a position with skilled players...
    This leads me to believe you have never encountered a Disc Priest who understands the value of DA stacking via overheals, and how to gear appropriately for tank healing.

    I would think a "skilled player" would know this.

    For the record, my guild uses Holy Paladins, and I'm usually in a raid shielding role. Doesn't mean I can't tank heal when called upon to do so.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Notlob its a palindrome
    Posts
    736
    Quote Originally Posted by NewfieDave View Post
    This leads me to believe you have never encountered a Disc Priest who understands the value of DA stacking via overheals, and how to gear appropriately for tank healing.

    I would think a "skilled player" would know this.

    For the record, my guild uses Holy Paladins, and I'm usually in a raid shielding role. Doesn't mean I can't tank heal when called upon to do so.
    You know how I know im a skilled player? because I can do Firefighter in my sleep...because I can switch to play holy as good as a main holy priest in any top 2-5% guild because I am consistant and able to do any hardmode achievement. I've quit and your statement is just Bizzare did you even BOTHER too armory my character? Yes it wasn't my main for a long time but when it was june till now(quit), I completed hardmodes where you didn't, Ive healed what you haven't and i've been in the top 200 in terms of guild progression.

    Yes Im cocky, yes I believe im probably one of the better disc priests and yes im not as good as I used to be.

    A good guild won't ask a disc priest to tank heal when they have a shaman or even a druid in most circumstances. We are not a tank healing class go theorycraft your heart out our tank healing prowess ENDED in ULDUAR content you didn't do.

    You dare insult my skill when what is skill but the combination of knowledge and experience?

    Oh and I healed every hardmode in gear that was 245 ilevel predominantly (apart from LK) and most definately was not carried by the guild I raided briefly with. I have quit now. So SAY i don't know my class go for it, ive got the tshirt too say I do, DO YOU?

    DA Stacks up to 10k, DA only works on crits, crits = RNG, tank healing requires consistancy and reliability due to the random nature of the damage. Go try replace a holy paladin on sidragosa hard mode PLEASE DO IT your so brilliant it hurts.

    (I am sorry for my actions but I have been given no choice by the sillyness of the above poster)

    EDIT 56: Disc priest main; like I don't know my own class back too front...sigh.....
    Last edited by Nicki; 05-06-2010 at 02:50 PM. Reason: I am sorry =(

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,762
    My main is a disc priest, too, and somewhere around ToC10 I had to acknowledge the fact that due to horrible disc scaling, shaman and pallies are better suited for tank healing than I am.
    Nicky is right. And his emotional reaction could have been mine.
    It takes ages for a disc priest to completely heal a tank up. We are now better suited for raid healing and are supporting tank healers.
    It's been a sore spot for us for half a year. There's a reason why Blizz promised us to improve Disc single target healing for 4.0.
    I blame that !§#%& talent Grace which provides a single target, temporary buff with the not even the same power as a middle tier holy talent which we just can't reach. Class designers completely dropped the ball on this one. It needs to be tripled in power to be relevant.
    Last edited by Mačl; 05-06-2010 at 03:17 PM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki
    Ydid you even BOTHER too armory my character?
    No, because I don't care about your character. I care about your statements. They are contrary to my experiences playing the game.

    Grats on hardmodes though. I'd have more if I wanted to spend more than 4-5 hours a week raiding and joined a guild that doesn't have attendance issues. To each their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki
    You dare insult my skill when what is skill but the combination of knowledge and experience?
    HOW DARE I!?!?!

    ...

    You insulted mine first, after taking my post out of context and making false assumptions about my guild's recruitment strategy. My initial point was that Disc Priests CAN tank heal, but it's wrong to assign them that role when you have multiple Holy Paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicki
    DA Stacks up to 10k, DA only works on crits, crits = RNG, tank healing requires consistancy and reliability due to the random nature of the damage.
    The great thing about crit is the more of it you have, the more reliable it becomes. In fact, if you analyze crit rating's effect on multiple successive casts (like Penance ticks, or chained Flash Heals) you will find that crit has an increasing rate of return on achieving multiple crits (up to a certain number, depending on number of casts - increasing returns stop at 66% crit when comparing 3 casts, ie. Penance). With raid buffs in my tank healing set, I sit at 43% holy crit. So on a target with Weakened Soul up, my Flash Heal has a 47% crit rate, and that goes up to 62% if they are below 50% health. At these levels, crit becomes semi-reliable. To make it more reliable, I have enough haste to drop my Flash Heal to 1.1 seconds without Borrowed Time.

    Also, factor in that DA will proc even on 100% overheals. This means that when the tank is still at full health, a Disc Priest can add up to 10k more effective health (it's much more vs physical damage once you scale it with the tank's Armor). A steady stream of Disc heals smooths out tank damage. The most dangerous form of damage for a tank to take is burst damage, and a Disc Priest is actually better at dealing with burst damage than a Holy Paladin. Holy Paladins are just better at topping up the tank after the damage has occured. In fact, the differing styles of Disc Priests and Holy Paladins make them an awesome combination. I would argue that in a 25man raid where you need two healers assigned to one tank at a time, it's better to use a Disc Priest + Holy Pally combo than to go with two Holy Pallies. Multiple tanks taking damage at the same time makes Beacon a beast, so two Holy Pallies wins that scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mačl
    My main is a disc priest, too, and somewhere around ToC10 I had to acknowledge the fact that due to horrible disc scaling, shaman and pallies are better suited for tank healing than I am.
    That's funny, because my guild downed Anub in ToGC10 for the first time with me, a Disc Priest, as the only tank healer (other healer was a Resto Druid taking care of the raid). We failed endlessly with a Paladin in the tank healer role. This doesn't mean Paladins are bad at that fight (although that particular Paladin was), but it does mean that Disc is CAPABLE of tank healing. And yes, this was when ToGC10 was current content.

    I invite anybody to prove to me that Disc is incapable of being a tank healer. Note that a link to your armory page does not count as proof.

  14. #14
    Disc is capable of tank healing in lower tier content. Disc will not keep a tank up on Hardmode 25 mans where the tank is literally getting his shit cleaned every single second. Grace sucks, flash heal is weak, DA has a cap, which is no where NEAR high enough to even absorb one hit, and Penance has a CD. Mael is right, it takes ages to top a tank off as Disc. We are amazing damage mitigators, why not take the positive from this and accept we are not currently viable as tank healers in end game content. Please note, normal mode first 4 is not end game.

    Edit: ToGC 10 man tank damage is *not* anywhere near what 25 man hardmode tank damage is like. Also, it sounds like your pally healer was terrible. And further more, that fight is more about not healing than healing, PC not withstanding.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,762
    ...but he is right in one point.

    It IS noticeable when I go holy for a couple of encounters. There are more touch&go situations when it comes to tank survival. DA is easily underestimated. But getting DA to stack up to the max(IIRC 20k, not 10k at lvl 80) takes ages and bosses hit too frequently for that. So you will have tanks sitting at the lower third of their HP pool and needing to be healed up within 2 seconds.
    I've had some beef with disGrace being the only thing that bosts Penance and our FH hitting nowhere as hard as a Holy Priests would do. The SP difference between Holy and Disc has become close to 300 with my gear. Holy scaling is way, way superior to Disc scaling. Disc has it's utility and will definitely help to getting evenly geared tanks thru tough content, but we still will need assistance.

    Grace would need to stack up to 30% to be really meaningful. Lack of Spiritual Healing and other things in the typical Disc build now seriously have become a problem.
    Last edited by Mačl; 05-07-2010 at 01:06 AM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  16. #16
    Oh no, I agree if you are looking at holy vs disc to keep a tank up, disc is the clear winner, however in 25 man situations, you are likely(and should really) have one disc and at least one holy. I would hope you strive to min/max your raid group, but if you are in a more casual guild or only do ten mans, your situation will be different. In a 25 man setting, endgame, a disc priest is not strong on a tank. They will be strong than a holy priest but that's reallllly about it.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Notlob its a palindrome
    Posts
    736
    for Mael DA cap = 125*level...

    WoM != Skill so my armory should be good enough to prove I atleast have experience...

    Heres a log of a disc priest tank healing...pretty good, that said still 2 holy paladins in the log and god that fight sucks...

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/1d2ke...?s=7006&e=7479
    Last edited by Nicki; 05-07-2010 at 09:28 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    393
    That log seems to support my statements about DA doing heavy lifting. He had 26.4% of his effective healing done by DA. The next highest was PoM at 15.7%, and that's on a fight where PoM really shines.

    It's very difficult to theorycraft some of this stuff. How do you weigh the value of Disc adding effective health to a tank compared to another class bombing heals or stacking HoTs? They each have their own unique advantages and disadvantages that go beyond just effective HPS. I believe that variety of heals trumps stacking one type of heal, unless that one type of heal is grossly overpowered. Where the line is on "grossly overpowered" is up in the air though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bellatrix
    I would hope you strive to min/max your raid group, but if you are in a more casual guild or only do ten mans, your situation will be different.
    I wouldn't call my guild casual (very troublesome word), but we're in the same boat as many other guilds. On my server there are 3-4 guilds that push progression content as soon as it's released, but they expect you to be available to raid 4-6 nights a week if there is still content to be downed. Many people - myself included - have the skill and gear to be accepted into such a guild, but just don't have the available time or willingness to spend that much time on raiding. We end up joining the guilds who raid 2-3 nights a week, which generally have a good core of solid raiders surrounded by filler. In every guild like this I've ever joined, attendance is a huge issue. Min/maxing the raid group on a good night means bringing the raiders who've been showing up for weeks and the officers know they can trust. Min/maxing the raid group on a bad night means finding the best available PUGs to fill out the group because nobody showed up.

    It's annoying when new content comes out before I've progressed through the current tier (this happened to me in Ulduar25 - summer raid attendance is always terrible), but I'm in no hurry to try and get world firsts. If I already had Heroic LK down I would have nothing to keep me playing until Cata comes out. It's kind of like self-imposed content pacing.
    Last edited by NewfieDave; 05-07-2010 at 10:17 AM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Notlob its a palindrome
    Posts
    736
    you missed there being 2 hammer effects in the raid which may skew result accuracy (yay blizz)

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/1d2ke...?s=7006&e=7479

    Paladin healing:1343208/2 = 671604 ~each
    Priest healing: 631793~ (not counting Val'anyr sub 50k for holy priest ) = 581793

    A 14% difference roughly is quite big (and thats not counting overhealing of which paladins will have 30% more. Paladins output thus is significantly better than disc priests on a single target).

    Atleast quantifiable analysis says don't bother as for EH through shields thats a rather meh topic...

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,762
    Nicky, you know your knowledge of Disc isn't in doubt and I'd rather doubt myself. So it's only 10k for DA? I don't work with WoL, so I only have my gut feeling. I KNOW that me being Disc has bought us many glorious victories. Don't need no steenking statistics to prove me right.

    But I also know something is severely amiss when it feels like ages if it takes me 3-4 FHs to get a tank from 20% to 100% if I'm not clever about saving my penance/borrowed time + PI + engi glove enchant + GH. We are at our best when watching the raid and the tank while leaving the heavy duty lifting to shaman and the other type of healer that uses a shield.

    Returning to the original question: 5% bonus to shield is very useful as we don't scale as well with spell power(or stats or anything but crit) as other healers. PW: S is THE spec defining skill to a Disc priest and IMHO more important than Penance.

    On a side note: I hope they fix Grace or I will spec out of it.

    Edit:
    Exactly. And as we have figured out, there are thresholds of EH(dependant on the fight) where Aegis(and to some extent) PW: S will tip the scale. If they don't they are irrelevant. Disc priest are the healers that make that difference between beating or wiping on a progression encounter. But not in terms of getting a tank from 20% to 100%. My point being: we are the only spec in the game that truly prevents deaths BEFORE the blow connects.
    I've come to view the metric of HPS as vulgar and limiting due to this fact.

    Still, I need my holy spec every once in a while if only to brush my ego and to prove that I'm one of the top 5% priests of the world. I never said I wasn't petty.
    Last edited by Mačl; 05-07-2010 at 11:06 AM.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts