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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Heh. I hit 50k in caster form the other night. Others are well above 50k normally in caster form and above 70k in bear.

    Though I hope that this is reined in like they did armor.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arikak View Post
    That's a good distinction. I wish they would state that this is a relative to gear not total health pools. Just to clarify because it's not obvious. And so we actually know that is their actual thinking.
    *Edit: Eyonix cleared this up.

    Though I still am still concerned how plate wearers/most melee are going to fare against casters, if you aren't a tank. Since they will lack the stamina modifiers that tanks enjoy. Unless those talents are found high in the protection trees.

    Which brings up another interesting tangent. If they are trying to encourage plate wearing classes to be able to tank without a protection spec (a path I do not support in any way) what are they going to balance 5 mans around? Arms warriors with a shield in Def stance or Prot warriors with their stam multipliers and more mitigation? Balancing around the former would most likely make 5-mans stupid easy for real tanks, just like Wrath.
    I imagine the Righteous Fury, Frost Presence, and Defensive stance "crit immunities" will be talents higher up in their respective trees, I wouldn't be surprised to see Righteous Fury moved to be higher up (costing more points to get to), Improved Defensive Stance already is. DKs are trickier. I could see them moving the Improved presences to be lower in the trees though, and making Improved Frost Presence the chosen talent. This would mean that DPS DKs could potentially grab it, but they would be giving up talent points that could be spent on DPS. Alternatively, the bonuses could be applied through Mastery points.

  3. #23
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    This is starting to look stupid as hell. Really considering moving MMOs at this point, perhaps quitting them altogether. D3 looks hot, LotRO, SW: TOR. Seems like from what these posts are saying tanks are not needed. Hell, we have plenty of mages who would love the role. Thanks Blizz. You took everything we wanted and puked it back up on us, and here we sit, stinking in it. Thank you so much.
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  4. #24
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    We're aware this is a lot of information to take in, but this is still only a piece of the larger picture, and many of these changes rely on integration with other systems we haven't yet discussed in detail.
    Think I will wait for the rest of the larger picture before committing or making any judgment to the state of the game come cata.

    I would suggest a similar stance to any body who says this all looks stupid and is going to be awful. We need more of the picture before we toss it out.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    This is starting to look stupid as hell. Really considering moving MMOs at this point, perhaps quitting them altogether. D3 looks hot, LotRO, SW: TOR. Seems like from what these posts are saying tanks are not needed. Hell, we have plenty of mages who would love the role. Thanks Blizz. You took everything we wanted and puked it back up on us, and here we sit, stinking in it. Thank you so much.
    Dps classes won't be able to tank. They'll lack crit immunity (and zero way to gain it), mitigation beyond their gear's armor, threat multipliers, and stamina multipliers. So even if they stack all Stam in every gem slot they wont have the health pool. Ghostcrawler and Eyonix cleared this up on the WoW forums.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    I imagine the Righteous Fury, Frost Presence, and Defensive stance "crit immunities" will be talents higher up in their respective trees, I wouldn't be surprised to see Righteous Fury moved to be higher up (costing more points to get to), Improved Defensive Stance already is. DKs are trickier. I could see them moving the Improved presences to be lower in the trees though, and making Improved Frost Presence the chosen talent. This would mean that DPS DKs could potentially grab it, but they would be giving up talent points that could be spent on DPS. Alternatively, the bonuses could be applied through Mastery points.
    I think we'll see them go with the Mastery route. Though it could in theory just be part of the base "Stance" for each class. Which would be bad in my opinion, but if they want to find more tanks for the LFD tool then I could see them going that way.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    This is starting to look stupid as hell. Really considering moving MMOs at this point, perhaps quitting them altogether. D3 looks hot, LotRO, SW: TOR. Seems like from what these posts are saying tanks are not needed. Hell, we have plenty of mages who would love the role. Thanks Blizz. You took everything we wanted and puked it back up on us, and here we sit, stinking in it. Thank you so much.
    Sorry Dread but this post looks like something I'd see on the official forums and not from someone such as yourself.

    When I first heard about a lot of the Wrath changes (DKs included) I was frothing at the mouth and swore off the game, "WARLOCKS IN PLATE!? AAAAAH F-THIS!", but after I actually got some first-hand experience with the changes I realized it wasn't the end of the world (of warcraft).

    Like the above poster, I feel it's too early to throw all hope out the window and I actually like the idea of the changes released for the most part.
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  8. #28
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    Yup not happy reading through this either, looks like any new talent points we acquire will be instantly placed into been uncrittable (if it isn't a simple case of been in def stance which is retarded) so I guess the tanking tree will be reworked to work around this. No more block sets I would guess if it is going to a be a straight cut reduced figure, parry change seems extremely rng.

    I do still believe these stat changes are all a bit duh duh and going for a simplistic no real need to think about it approach.
    Marking targets, coordinating CC, and *most importantly*, pulling responsibly so that 9 elites didn't rush us and wipe the party, this Is something I have missed since nov 08.

  9. #29
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    How does stacking stam in every gem slot require thought?

    These changes actually increase the complexity. Parry vs. Dodge? Is it better to take regular half-dmg hits or ride the dodge all or nothing train? I bet it will vary greatly by fight. Though I definitely lament the loss of my SBV set.

    Personally I like the changes, at least coming at them from a tanking perspective. I get back block as being useful. Parry isn't just dodge any more, word. I get hit more, yay. I look forward to more regular damage. Right now if I spike low I really don't know how long I will be there, hence my choices in response are clouded. If I get low in Cata I'll know something went bad wrong and can react accordingly.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowen View Post
    Yup not happy reading through this either, looks like any new talent points we acquire will be instantly placed into been uncrittable (if it isn't a simple case of been in def stance which is retarded) so I guess the tanking tree will be reworked to work around this. No more block sets I would guess if it is going to a be a straight cut reduced figure, parry change seems extremely rng.

    I do still believe these stat changes are all a bit duh duh and going for a simplistic no real need to think about it approach.
    I don't think you're understanding this.

    If they tie in crit immunity to talents (like how ferals are) then you'd already be using those talents by default. For example: How many current warrior tanks do you see without Improved Defensive Stance? Prot paladins without Improved Righteous Fury? DKs without an Improved Presence? relax, it's not as bad as you think. I doubt they'll add additional ranks to those abilities just for the crit immunity, otherwise they'll have to increase the other benefits of the talent as well which will cause balance issues.

    Block is being made incredibly desirable (in comparison to it's current form) for tanking, the base reduction of 30% is much better than the current mitigation given from Block Value. Parry (and all avoidance) is already extremely rng, the change they're talking about makes it no more rng than it currently is. If you parry you take 50% less damage from that attack and the next attack (if it hits) is reduced by 50% as well, seems pretty cut and dry to me.

    A lot of the stat changes being made are due to stat inflation issues with end-tier gear, and why they keep adding a radiance to the end-tier raids, because avoidance values are getting out of control and if they try to balance fights around tanks with 60%+ avoidance and 50k+ hp then the bosses will have to hit you so hard that if you take 2 consecutive hits you'll wipe.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowen View Post
    I do still believe these stat changes are all a bit duh duh and going for a simplistic no real need to think about it approach.
    Ah, with this, as well as other posts, we have entered the QQ zone. Let's QQ more about stuff we've only seen the edge of.

    I'll wait to see the whole enchilada before yelling to all and sundry that the sky is falling. Actually sounds interesting, depending on how the rest of it is set up. Lots of variables that we haven't seen yet.

  12. #32
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    On first read, I had the first reaction as many tanks here: "here we go, we are solving the apparent lack of tanks by letting everyone doing so"

    Now, I do not think this is going to be the case. Tank numbers are a limiting factor for the insta-HC concept, but not at all for raiding guilds. I personally will try to tank for guildies, rather than for randoms.

    My only fear here is that Blizzard will have to dumb down so much the HCs in cata to allow dps tank hybrid (from the start of 4.0), that for many people it will be no challenge whatsoever, i.e. we will get more of an adrenaline rush by playing Tetris, than tanking an HC.

    Is this the right model? In my opinion it is not, it will mean more happy players for a couple of months (maximum), and then it will all look boring. Unless Blizzard can keep up with releasing fresh content, in the for of HCs every 6-8 weeks.

    Regarding the rest of changes, on paper, they look interesting. We will have to wait and try the beta.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    I imagine the Righteous Fury, Frost Presence, and Defensive stance "crit immunities" will be talents higher up in their respective trees, I wouldn't be surprised to see Righteous Fury moved to be higher up (costing more points to get to), Improved Defensive Stance already is. DKs are trickier. I could see them moving the Improved presences to be lower in the trees though, and making Improved Frost Presence the chosen talent. This would mean that DPS DKs could potentially grab it, but they would be giving up talent points that could be spent on DPS. Alternatively, the bonuses could be applied through Mastery points.
    I dont think they will make this into a talent but instead tie it into the stance. I imagine Righteous Fury will have the -25% to healing that Divine Plea has to balance it out. The others seem fine enough that the trade to uncritable will make you lose damage output. They ended up feeling that this would be a mandatory plate/druid talent which was going against the grain of "fun" talents in Cataclysm. And as per a previous post i think DKs' and Druids' mastery will be tied to stance just like being uncritable.

    @Dreador: Prot mastery will look something akin to Defense except more tailored to the tank's design and wont scale so fast as to need a radiance end game and enough room for Blizz to throw in an unexpected raid or whatever without worrying about overinflated stats like present content

    PS to everyone who thinks being uncritable being tied to a stance is retarded look at druids with survival of the fittest talent. This is already some thing in game, like everything new try it out before passing judgment.

  14. #34
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    Ah, with this, as well as other posts, we have entered the QQ zone. Let's QQ more about stuff we've only seen the edge of.
    I wasn't just basing an in the wind opinion based on this limiting information presented to us, but the model and changes they have been changing to for months now. But yes we need the full info on this.
    Marking targets, coordinating CC, and *most importantly*, pulling responsibly so that 9 elites didn't rush us and wipe the party, this Is something I have missed since nov 08.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by hola_adios View Post
    On first read, I had the first reaction as many tanks here: "here we go, we are solving the apparent lack of tanks by letting everyone doing so"

    Now, I do not think this is going to be the case. Tank numbers are a limiting factor for the insta-HC concept, but not at all for raiding guilds. I personally will try to tank for guildies, rather than for randoms.

    My only fear here is that Blizzard will have to dumb down so much the HCs in cata to allow dps tank hybrid (from the start of 4.0), that for many people it will be no challenge whatsoever, i.e. we will get more of an adrenaline rush by playing Tetris, than tanking an HC.

    Is this the right model? In my opinion it is not, it will mean more happy players for a couple of months (maximum), and then it will all look boring. Unless Blizzard can keep up with releasing fresh content, in the for of HCs every 6-8 weeks.

    Regarding the rest of changes, on paper, they look interesting. We will have to wait and try the beta.
    Heroics cant be challenging unless you force the party to have a special ability that few classes have, ie you cant have a fight in heroics that need shackle to make it 100x easier. Also most the time heroics are run by strangers who arent in vent making quick shifts in combat harder to coordinate. Heroics are there for gear to get into the first tier of Cataclysm and from what they are stating they dont want it to be a huge farm session every new tier like it is now but something like a 2 tier badge system. As for dps spec tanks i wont judge it till i see it but i can say i aready seen people who outgear heroics by a large margin in dps spec running them as a tank just fine. Think of the reverse though it puts pressure on the plate classes now in a raid that if all tanks are down and the boss is going down to quickly pick up the boss kinda like a good feral druid can do now a days.

  16. #36
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    To me the idea of mixing it all up so that everyone has to try new angles to tanking/dps/healing etc just sounds interesting

    it will be like playing for the first time again, gettin to know what works best etc etc
    people will adapt to the change
    good tanks will always find a way to be better than the "dps tanks"

    all i hope is that they dont simplify it to much cos im a bit of a geek an i like doin my calculations

  17. #37
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    If you are a tank (druids excepted), expect to see:
    No more Defense on gear. Existing Defense becomes Dodge, Parry, or Block Rating.
    So DKs will still see useless Block on gear - or will they get to use it?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosk View Post
    So DKs will still see useless Block on gear - or will they get to use it?
    Dont forget a BS can reforge the Block into a useful stat (not sure if its still a stat not already on the gear or it can go into a stat already there).

  19. #39
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    Well... Im undecided as to how to view all the changes presented so far.

    Its been very hard getting to 37k health unbuffed as a tank ( my guild is not doing so well in the later content of late, so gearing past T9 badge gear is getting to be a little headache ) since EH became the way to go.

    As a plate wearing dps ( War & Blood DK ) these changes also worry me, health is not a problem for dps classes, nor should it be. Health is not a factor providing more DPS, nor a plate wearing DPS should be as fragile as someone wearing a sheet of cloth around their body.

    If your tanks are doing things right in the instance or raid, and if your healers are half decently geared and competent at their job, as a dps class you have no reason to need more stamina in your pool.

    Plate is the best protection, you are wrapped from head to toe in thick layers of metal which allow very little damage to pass.

    Cloth is supple, light, and very weak on protection, thus should give extremely poor health overall as well as damage reduction by any means.

    If anything neds to be changed, then Plate should make you slower in attacking, mail should be faster, leather even faster, and cloth should be the fastest of all, but even then you cannot expect to survive as much as another character wrapped in plate.

    The new changes here make no sense whatsoever, except maybe to cater for those who whine their priest, or lock, or mage cannot stand getting a shield in the face ( which is normal btw, you should not be able to get shield slammed and laugh at it ).

    However if armor thickness affected speed, then haste would be a much more desireable stat to have.

    My other dps character is a hunter ( have dps arms spec on war, and a blood death knight to sample most dps forms ). So I will give you guys a run down on how I see these changes affecting him.

    Being a hunter my bread and butter stat is agility.

    Agility gives me AP, Crit Rating, and through those two, allows me to output considerable damage. So far so good.

    The AP bonus on armor and gems allows me to heavily stack AP to increase my damage by a lot, however with this removal of AP from items and the 2 AP for 1 Agi, the net result is as follolws from the simple math approach to theorycrafting:

    We will assume for the simplicity of calculation that currently 1700 Agi plus armor, gems, enchants and aspect, result in 5000 AP on the average hunter.

    With no AP from armor, we look at in the case of 1700 AGI to a net 3400 AP. Since Ap is rmeoved form items it is safe to assume that AP providing gems and enchants are also gone, hence we loose the 130 AP enchant from LW on bracers, the 110 AP from weapons, the AP providing gems ( 40 AP per gem if you need them ). This nets us in a loss assuming you onyl have one gem for AP, of 280 less AP.

    Now looking at the amoutn of AP a full T9 badge set has, we see that we will loose 951 AP.

    So, 951 AP less from T9 Badge set plus 280 AP less from enchants and gems, equals to a net loss of 1231 AP.

    To provide the amount lost, this means that the average hunter will need an extra 615,5 AGI from items. Meaning the same hunter would need to have 1700 AGI ( Current ) plus 615,5 AGI extra to sum a grand total of 2316 AGI to achieve the same 5k AP result.

    This equals to a net increase of aproximately 40% more AGI to produce the same result.

    This is in reality a huge nerf in DPS to the class Im using as an example.

    Now think how this will affect other physical dps classes/specs such as rogues, feral druids, arms/fury warriors, Blood Death knights and to a smaller extent shamans.

    Surely Blizzard has not thought this through.

    The amounts of stats they will need to provide on gear are so huge that seeing warriors, or rogues/hunters, or *insert class here* with their main stats over 3000 will be something common and run of the mill.

    The way this looks is that the removal of such an important stat from the items will result in a huge net loss of dps on raids, or turn most raids into a collection of two classes wearing plate and the rest cloth, leaving hunters, shamans, rogues, and death knights sitting in Dalaraan waiting for the looking for group tool to let them do a simple heroic instance.

    This seems a return to the ugly days of the nerf bat, but this time they are destroying all classes at once.

    But lets look at other changes, with so many things changed seems like they want to equal all tanking classes, which they should in some things ( health pools ) but not entirely in the way they work/play.

    They would do well to provide all tanking classes and equal AoE aggro generation, thus not forcing a class down a guild's throat who does not wish to use that class simply because for fight X you absolutely must have a tank of class Y or it is so hard its almost impossible to complete the fight.

    Other than this, there should be no equalization of tanking classes.

    Each should have a unique/differentiated style of play, envolving either the use of spells, mystival abilities ( druids should use these and not spells ), runes, or physical combat abilities.

    Each style should be distinct, different, and entirely unrelated, but provide no benefit over the other class beyond the style of play to the player thus ensuring all have a niche.

    The way dodge, parry and block works, should work solely for shield wearing classes, giving the DK and the druid tanks a different mechanic ( which they did thorugh glyphs, and some abilties ).

    The way parry works should favor more the DK's tanking style, using the weapon or weapon to parry the attacks instead of the shield.

    Ideally, block should be a very important stat on warrior or paladin tanks and mean nothing to the DK, who in turn should have a huge boost to their parry and a benefit nothing from block.

    Why?, simply because blocking is placing the shield in front of the damage stopping it cold against the shield's protection, parry is stopping the enemy's weapon from hitting you, by placing your weapon in such a way that it prevents the enemey's weapon from hitting you.

    Either stat would provide what a tank needs, depending solely on how they fight and not on the stat amount itself.

    Mastery.... oh well too soon to say what this will do, but of all changes this seems to me the most interesting.

    Stat changing on gear.... erm.... isnt that what enchants already do?. If you need more stamina, gem for it and enchant for it, if you neeed more strength or agi, enchant and gem for it.... What does this really do?.

    If anything does away with the need for armor patches, enchants and gems, if we can swap 20 Int for 10 Sta on a item that a class which needs Int but does not need Sta as much is wearing, whats the use of putting Sta so low on the item in the first place?.

    If we cannot as stated on blue post change sta into str, or sta into agi, then what use is this system?. Blizzard has said they are removing nonsensical combinations of stats from ietms such as AGI and SPI, so what stats can we swap?.

    If anything what this system should do is allow you to revamp you old raid epics and upgrade them ( keeping the art ) to max lvl equivalents thorugh a quest-like system.

    Gather two or three items with stats you need to revamp on your old epic, gather X amount of badges, and toss in Y amount of frozen orbs, and take it all to X Npc. The npc gets all of that and turns your epic back to you all nice and revamped to the level you are needing.

    I know I'd revamp quite a few of my old epics that way, and it would surely be more insteresting to most people than to be able to swap 50% of a stat you didnt need in the first place and shouldnt have been placed in the item you got as you are of *insert class here*.

    Anyways sorry for the wall-o-text.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammerfists View Post
    Dont forget a BS can reforge the Block into a useful stat (not sure if its still a stat not already on the gear or it can go into a stat already there).
    Not just BS, reforging prof depends on armor type, and nope, even though can't have more of the same stat already present on an item it should help DKs get rid of block.
    Last edited by sud; 03-02-2010 at 04:42 AM.
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