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Thread: Upcoming Parry, Block Changes

  1. #1

    Upcoming Parry, Block Changes

    Some upcoming Cata changes from blue:

    Block Rating - Block is being redesigned to scale better. Blocked attacks will simply hit for 30% less damage. Block rating will improve your chance to block, though overall block chances will be lower than they are today.

    Parry - Parry no longer provides 100% avoidance and no longer speeds up attacks. Instead, when you parry an attack, it and the next attack will each hit for 50% damage (assuming they hit at all). In other words, Dodge is a chance to avoid 100% of the damage from one attack, Parry is a chance to avoid 50% of the damage from two attacks, and Block is a chance to avoid 30% of the damage from one attack.

    Armor - The way Armor mitigates damage is not changing, but the Armor stat has been rebalanced to mirror changes to the armor curve in Cataclysm. As a result, bonus Armor will go down slightly overall. We are also changing the mitigation difference among armor types so that plate doesn’t offer so much more protection than mail, leather, and cloth.

    Shield Block Value - This stat will no longer be present on items, since the amount blocked is always proportional to the amount of damage done. Talents and other effects might still modify the damage-reduction percentage from 30%, however.

    Defense - Defense is being removed from the game entirely. Tanking classes should expect to become uncrittable versus creatures just by shifting into Defensive Stance, Frost Presence, Bear Form, or by using Righteous Fury.



    If you are a tank (druids excepted), expect to see:
    No more Defense on gear. Existing Defense becomes Dodge, Parry, or Block Rating.
    No more Block Value on gear. Existing Block Value becomes Block Rating.
    You’ll have as much Stamina as you’re used to, though you may notice your tanking plate has a bit less Stamina than a comparable piece of DPS plate, since we tend to take the gem budget out of your most attractive stat.
    Bonus Armor on gear will go down slightly.
    Last edited by LogisticSaucer; 03-01-2010 at 12:17 PM.

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    Might be worth mentioning it's the cataclysm changes and not some random patch :P

    Interesting change to parry, so it factors into more migation wonder if this will also change some parry related talents like the DK spell one.

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    Looks like parry won't be an avoidance stat anymore. Block and parry will be a randomn damage mitigation stat. Tanks with block and/or parry will take more consistent damage but has less occurance of spike damage events. Looks like a good change to me.

    Depends of the conversion and diminishing returns of block rating and parry rating, block rating may become a paladin and warrior's main tanking stat.

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    I think that looks very very interesting. Also makes parry a lot more attractive to me. It mitigates almost as much damage as a dodge, but spreads it out more. The downside is that the second "charge" can be eaten by a dodge, a miss, or another parry, but the upside is that it'll smooth out damage far more than full avoidance. In other words, as a healer, I'd be much happier to see my tank take 2 10k hits than dodge a hit and then take a 20k hit. Also makes the stat more interesting in general I think, since it'll be different from dodge in a significant way for the first time.

    Block also looks a lot more appealing to me. With all these mitigation stats being tossed around, I imagine unmitigated hits are really really gonna hurt in Cataclysm. I like the changes.

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    I'm on board with these changes as well. At the very least it will make Parry something more interesting than the bastard stepchild of dodge that we grudgingly accept because our choices are limited.

    Also, while I know that some people have previously feared that a chance like this makes block just an RNG form of armor...I don't see the problem with several differing forms of mitigation being in the game. It's no less interesting than having three different forms of avoidance, and given that they work quite differently from one another (block mitigates less but probably more frequently, parry mitigates more and works over the course of two attacks) there may well be encounters or gearing levels that will favor stacking one over the other.

    Looking forward to learning more about the implementation.

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    The only issue I see is if they let Parry/Block/Dodge scale up too quickly. At our current avoidance levels in game, it would be very nearly possible to never take a full hit. If all incoming attacks were either blocked parried or dodged, then all incoming attacks would have to hit twice as hard, which could be a very painful barrier to entry for some tanks.

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    Huzzah, this might actually make DKs easier to heal for many healers (trees especially). We'll be far less spiky.

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    Mentioned this on the one in general chat, but I'm curious to see how it's all going to play out.

    Defense - Defense is being removed from the game entirely. Tanking classes should expect to become uncrittable versus creatures just by shifting into Defensive Stance, Frost Presence, Bear Form, or by using Righteous Fury.

    Stamina - Because of the way we will be assigning Strength, Agility, and Intellect, non-plate wearers will end up with more Stamina than before. Health pools will be much closer between plate-wearers and other classes.

    Armor - The way Armor mitigates damage is not changing, but the Armor stat has been rebalanced to mirror changes to the armor curve in Cataclysm. As a result, bonus Armor will go down slightly overall. We are also changing the mitigation difference among armor types so that plate doesn’t offer so much more protection than mail, leather, and cloth.

    If you are a tank (druids excepted), expect to see:

    • No more Defense on gear. Existing Defense becomes Dodge, Parry, or Block Rating.
    • No more Block Value on gear. Existing Block Value becomes Block Rating.
    • You’ll have as much Stamina as you’re used to, though you may notice your tanking plate has a bit less Stamina than a comparable piece of DPS plate, since we tend to take the gem budget out of your most attractive stat.
    • Bonus Armor on gear will go down slightly.


    If you are a melee DPS class, druid tank, or hunter, expect to see:
    • A lot more Stamina. Bear-form Stamina scaling will be lowered as a result.
    • Strength if you wear plate. Agility if you wear mail or leather.
    • Existing Attack Power becomes Agility and Stamina.Armor Penetration becomes Haste or Crit.
    • No Intellect on melee gear. Hunters won’t need Intellect since they will no longer use mana. Shaman and Retribution paladins will get mana and spell damage in other ways.
    Those are pulled straight from the blue post... looks like they're serious about wanting to let any warrior, dk, paladin or druid tank when necessary.

    Makes me wonder how they're going to balance talent trees and raid encounters to make the actual protection trees more appealing than hybrid specs or a different tree entirely.

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    It seems like mitigation is what's going to really serve to distinguish tanks from everyone else since our stamina pools will be similar and our plate will be less protective in comparison.

    Satrina, I'd love to hear your take on the parry changes in particular. I know you've wanted a different take on it over the years anyway.

  11. #11
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    If you parry an attack, and then block the next one, do you get a 65% reduction? (0.5*0.7=0.35) or does the parry just overwrite the block? These are rhetorical questions since none of us knows yet, but it would alter the value of the stat for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    The only issue I see is if they let Parry/Block/Dodge scale up too quickly. At our current avoidance levels in game, it would be very nearly possible to never take a full hit. If all incoming attacks were either blocked parried or dodged, then all incoming attacks would have to hit twice as hard, which could be a very painful barrier to entry for some tanks.
    I do remember them stating that they are trying to make it so that 'caps' would be hard to reach, So i do think they would make it so and tweak the DR enough if it stacks to high. That it doesn't become an issue.

    What i find interesting is that they are reducing migation from tanking plate (reduced armor) and are removing the addition 'avoidance' from parry and are turning it into a more migation stat same for block.

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    Interesting changes overall. The points about caps sounds like they might be implementing some lite Diminishing returns for more stats makeing it harder to hard cap things like hit and crit.

    The parry changes definately make it a more attractive stat to aquire.

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    For the game, these mechanics make a good deal of sense but I question there validity in the fantasy milieu. Why on earth does Parry protect you from more damage than a shield block? That's a bit nonsensical.

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    Its interesting the way they are talking about stamina and it seems like tanks will not have dramatically higher health pools than they do now while they are giving us more mitigation tools in block and parry.

    This is not what I really expected. Without larger health pools, we are still at the whim of the RNG where we can go from full health to dead before healers can really react. Magic damage is not mitigated by those things, and a couple consecutive un-dodged/parried/blocked hits would probably kill you as well since the expectation seems like it will be that most hits are mitigated in some way. Healers would still be forced to keep the tank topped off at all times to avoid RNG deaths, and not worry as much about efficiency.

    I guess the wild card here is the Mastery bonuses, which will probably increase health and/or flat mitigation for all damage. In the system they are describing here, that seems like the only way to push us to EH levels where healing efficiency actually matters.

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    Tanks are going to have vastly larger health pools than they do now. It's just that the amount of stamina on plate gear vs other gear will be closer together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    For the game, these mechanics make a good deal of sense but I question there validity in the fantasy milieu. Why on earth does Parry protect you from more damage than a shield block? That's a bit nonsensical.
    I feel exactly the same way. I said this in the other thread in the general forums but they need to switch the mechanics for Block and Parry. Or at least the values.

    Actually, if I had my way each tank would only have only 2 ways to mitigate (not counting armor or abilities).

    Warriors and paladins: Block and Dodge

    Druids and Death Knights: Parry and Dodge.

    Same *ish* base dodge for for all 4 classes. But blocking would work twice as often as parry for half as much damage mitigated.

    Under this system you would not see parry or block on gear but rather 'Deflection Rating' which would contribute either to your block or your parry.

    Eliminating a defensive stat would allow tanks to round out their stats a bit more and make things like requiring more hit on tanks a reality for developers.
    Last edited by Arikak; 03-01-2010 at 04:58 PM. Reason: expanded thoughts.
    "A man can learn twice as much from milking a cat as two men can from a very tall fourth man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    Tanks are going to have vastly larger health pools than they do now. It's just that the amount of stamina on plate gear vs other gear will be closer together.
    The example they cited is dps plate potentially having more PROPORTIONATE stamina than tanking plate because of the impact sockets have to item budgets. Regardless because the gaps are closer together I certainly hope our damage is closer together because frankly I worry about a world where our only significant EH advantage is RNG based (the new mitigation approaches to block and parry).

  19. #19
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    Can't say I'm a fan of the tanking changes they have shared so far, and as a prot warrior it been a simple case of been in def stance to become uncrittable.
    Marking targets, coordinating CC, and *most importantly*, pulling responsibly so that 9 elites didn't rush us and wipe the party, this Is something I have missed since nov 08.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bowen View Post
    Can't say I'm a fan of the tanking changes they have shared so far, and as a prot warrior it been a simple case of been in def stance to become uncrittable.
    When was the last time you had to seriously worry about being uncrittable outside a gimmick set?
    "A man can learn twice as much from milking a cat as two men can from a very tall fourth man.
    - Mark "Alec Baldwin" Twain

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