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Thread: Tank Classes Differentiation, Viability and Encounter Design

  1. #41
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    Read the thread, liked it.

    I'm looking forward to the changes. I have the feeling that blizz painted themelves into a corner with the current system, and 5 years or whatever of bandainds clearly helped, but didn't get them out of the problem.

    My hope/belief is, this new system is something they've developed as a result of what they have learned about the current mechanics, what works well, what doesn't and (most importantly) how it makes players react and behave within the game as a result.

    If they didn't bother to try and learn anything from what they've done, then this is just a random "throw out baby with bathwater" move, and that makes no sense to me at all...which is why I'm inclined to discount it.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    Read the thread, liked it.

    I'm looking forward to the changes. I have the feeling that blizz painted themelves into a corner with the current system, and 5 years or whatever of bandainds clearly helped, but didn't get them out of the problem.

    My hope/belief is, this new system is something they've developed as a result of what they have learned about the current mechanics, what works well, what doesn't and (most importantly) how it makes players react and behave within the game as a result.

    If they didn't bother to try and learn anything from what they've done, then this is just a random "throw out baby with bathwater" move, and that makes no sense to me at all...which is why I'm inclined to discount it.

    You know... really agree with you.

    They realized they created something they couldn't sustain and with each step forward with gear, realized they were scaling things at a rate they couldn't keep up.

    I mean, look at the pace of item "improvements" between Azeroth, BC, and WotLK.

    Example:

    Level 20 item:Onyx Claymore
    Level 40 item:Boneslasher
    Level 60 item:Typhoon
    Level 70 item:Lionheart Executioner
    Level 80 item:Claymore of the Prophet
    Level 80+ item:Citadel Enforcer's Claymore

    From level 20 to level 60, we see a shift in composite stat bonuses (sum of stat bonuses on gear) go from a sum of 20 to 44.
    A gain of 24.

    From level 60 to 70, we see a shift of 44 to 96.... a gain of 52? In ten levels?

    It gets worse. From 70 to 80, we see 96 to 205. a gain of 99, again in ten levels. But scarier yet is, that at level 80, we have gear that can be a difference of 139! For the same character level!

    Over the course of 40 levels, a gain of 24 points in various stats, yet in WotLK, we have a gain of 139 over SAME LEVEL items?
    It looks like this:



    We saw in Burning Crusade a significant jump in the value of items. A level 70 was significantly more powerful than a level 60, whereas a level 60 was on a similar linear progression as the level 50. At 80.1 (which is the level 80+ item from the example above), we have a huge leap.

    If we looked solely at level 0-60, we still technically have an exponential growth, as between 20 to 60, we see growth, with an 8 point gain between 20 and 40 and a 16 point gain between 40 and 60, increased by a factor of 2. Between 60 and 70, only ten levels....we have an increase of 52 points, a factor of 3.25, a significant jump. But in Wrath, we see a jump of 248 points from level 70 to level 80, a 4.769 factor increase.

    At this pace, what we'd see in Cataclysm, would be on the lines of 5.60 to 6.0 factor increase (roughly, and I'm cutting it back since Cataclysm is 'only' a 5 level jump), and we'd be seeing items with stat bonuses totaling around 1900-2000 points. We'd be seeing weapons with +800 strength and +1000 stamina or more. This doesn't even take into account things like armor penetration and defense!

    I think this is only part of the problem that they were facing. As it was, they had already rendered so much of the game irrelevant to the end-game player. I've been able to solo run Magister's Terrace with my death knight, for example. If I were a dev, I'd be looking at this and thinking, "wow... I just rendered 90%+ of game content pointless to a huge chunk of the population".

    I think they're looking to salvage some of that game content, and make a move back to what they had previously, while putting an interesting new spin on things. But I think they saw a need to rein in the escalation of item progression.

    Edit: If you're wondering how I can up with a score of 344 for the last item, I took into account maximizing the gem slot with a +20 gem and the built in slotted item bonus.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 03-05-2010 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Clarification on a item's "value"

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Sorry, Prolet, I didn't mean to dismiss you out of hand, just highlight the distinction between constructive criticism and flaming the design.

    Some of your comments tend to take a "the sky is falling" feeling to them, but I may just be reading too much into it. You find some critical points well, but do you see where they can be repaired, or do you see them as wrong, broken, and needing to just be removed?
    I tend to avoid "we should replace X with Y" when dealing with poorly thought out skills/talents in our class, but if I had to say what should go, what should come in, and where it might be placed:

    Abom's might gone, replaced with sunder armor equivalent at same level in talent tree.
    Blood Plague now applies some form of AP debuff.
    Blade Barrier mitigation is now passive. FP dr reduced by 1-2% to compensate.
    Forceful Deflection (baked into present blade barrier) now absorbs damage based on your strength when all blood runes are on cooldown.
    Desolation removed because it is awful bloat. Replaced with some form of tanking talent: Preferably stamina.
    Magic Supression removed. AMZ is now a stand-alone talent.
    Bone Shield glyph now adds 3 charges for a total of 6. Mitigation reduced slightly to compensate.
    Will of the Necropolis now has a 5-10 second ICD.
    Vampiric Blood same function, add: "removes the ICD of WotN for the duration of Vampiric Blood."

    These are just the more obvious ones that came to mind now. I've got a further laundry list of ideas, but can't dig them up while at work. Sufficed to say, I'm not convinced the sky is always falling and there is nothing to be done. I just think the devs are going in the completely wrong direction and I do think there some rather obvious (see above) things they've overlooked. I like to air the thoughts here because, as most of us know, the WoW boards (even the tanking board) is so rife with ignorance, flaming, and stupidity that a constructive post doesn't really stand a chance.
    Last edited by Proletaria; 03-05-2010 at 06:26 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    Read the thread, liked it.

    I'm looking forward to the changes. I have the feeling that blizz painted themelves into a corner with the current system, and 5 years or whatever of bandainds clearly helped, but didn't get them out of the problem.
    It's not Blizzard that got themselves into a corner, but us the players. People needed more tanks, and now Blizzard had to change a game that was originally designed for one 'main' tank which was properly balance with it's alternative (druids). This change introduced the, now MT viable Protection Paladins, and DKs. How to throw two extra tanks into the pool without disrupting balance in some way is the tricky part. I think they did a nice job, keeping in mind it's the first time they do that, and that the original game revolved only one 'main' MT.

    Second time's the charm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    I like to air the thoughts here because, as most of us know, the WoW boards (even the tanking board) is so rife with ignorance, flaming, and stupidity that a constructive post doesn't really stand a chance.
    Steering threads for constructiveness is quite difficult.

  5. #45
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    First of all, this is an excellent discussion. Thank you to all participants.

    There's one thing Leucifer mentioned that was overlooked a bit, and that I want to pick up again:
    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Ok. I see what you're saying here and put that way, I think it's great. However, knowing how that new system is designed, which would you rather have a higher percentage on? Dodge (100% mitigation) or Parry (<100% mitigation)? Blizzard will have to be careful not to reduce the value of parry and block so much that they become "pointless".
    I was quite surprised by your evaluation, since my initial reaction was the exact opposite. From the limited information we know so far, I would have valued Parry to be much more desirable then Dodge, since the average damage reduction should be the same, but the potential to reduce spike damage is much higher with the Parry mechanic.
    There's little ground to speculate about the relative values though until we learn more about how the 3 mechanics are balanced in uptime/rating conversion.

  6. #46
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    Good thread, lots of good points.

    With DK's in general, the thing I see is that they are the only one actually balanced. Every other tank seems to have something or another that puts them out of whack... like block trivializing things or druid tanks ending up with obscene amounts of health... or pallys having block and get out of jail free with faceroll threat. My opinion is that is was mostly warriors and paladins to a degree that caused the real issue of icecrown radiance. The fact that it was possible in toc gear to hit the "unhittable" cap (102.4%) and take regular white hits from mobs off the table... would make it impossible to balance things for the other tanks.

    I do believe blizzard when they say that extra heroic mode gearing was the biggest issue. The fact they overshot their tier gearing by pretty much at least 1 full tier. The best way to illustrate this is to look at heroics. Even in BIS BC gear they weren't a lolfest; note that I'm saying they weren't pretty easy... just not a we don't even need a tank fiasco like it is now. In ICC25 gear raiders you can do most of the heroics out there without a tank as long as you have a plate wearer. If you do have... say a geared pally tank.. they don't even take damage. So they outscaled their content by too big a margin...

    I don't think it actually matters with the whole inflation thing regarding gear. You only have to balance for the current expansion. But you have to say by Leucifer's post they need to tone it down a bit. Current raid content should be the only thing they balance for, or realistically can balance for.

    As for tanks... DK's should be the model for balance. It's a well designed class with distinct feel in every tree and different tank/dps styles. The other tanks are the ones unbalanced.. thru talents or design. You can't design something so one particular tank makes it trivial.. so you either nerf them or ramp up the encounter. Problem is that when you ramp up the encounter you leave the tank (in this case the DK) that isn't up to par out in the off off tank- dpser role. Even so, I don't think dks are so far behind.. at least not on paper. Dk's just don't have any real advantages... With cooldown up and popped they easily are surviveable versus anything in icc; it's just without them they seem to get trashed. For instance... festergut 10 man. Tanking thru one 3 inhale phase is pretty easy... 18 second ibf with 20 second unbreakable armor and I probably take less damage than nearly any other tank. But the nerfs to dks hurt their ability to tank in non cooldown parts too much. They probably should have left dk armor scaling alone...

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by xulev View Post
    My opinion is that is was mostly warriors and paladins to a degree that caused the real issue of icecrown radiance. The fact that it was possible in toc gear to hit the "unhittable" cap (102.4%) and take regular white hits from mobs off the table... would make it impossible to balance things for the other tanks.

    I do believe blizzard when they say that extra heroic mode gearing was the biggest issue. The fact they overshot their tier gearing by pretty much at least 1 full tier. The best way to illustrate this is to look at heroics. Even in BIS BC gear they weren't a lolfest; note that I'm saying they weren't pretty easy... just not a we don't even need a tank fiasco like it is now. In ICC25 gear raiders you can do most of the heroics out there without a tank as long as you have a plate wearer. If you do have... say a geared pally tank.. they don't even take damage. So they outscaled their content by too big a margin...
    wrt the unhittable state, Paladins reached that in Naxx-level gear. Further, as far as I'm able to compare, in that same Naxx level gear I had avoidance comparable with TBC tanks in T5-early T6 content. I don't recall ratios to compare health and armour with, but they're not in quite the same league. I don't wish to act as a retro-prophet, but I still recall posts made on our raid comm's forums to the effect that avoidance was ... surprisingly ... high before we even considered doing the Sartharion hardmode; let alone Ulduar and beyond.

    You cannot really compare Wrath and TBC heroics in the same way. True, Blood Furnace heroic was tough even in patch 2.4, while Halls of Lightning isn't. But then, Halls of Lightning was hardly a majorly challenging heroic back when we'd just dinged, if I recall correctly - in fact, I was tanking heroic Loken about an hour after I dinged 80. I didn;t dare to dream of hitting level 70 heroics until I had full normal level dungeon gear back then. Which I think I'd prefer

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    You cannot really compare Wrath and TBC heroics in the same way. True, Blood Furnace heroic was tough even in patch 2.4, while Halls of Lightning isn't. But then, Halls of Lightning was hardly a majorly challenging heroic back when we'd just dinged, if I recall correctly - in fact, I was tanking heroic Loken about an hour after I dinged 80. I didn;t dare to dream of hitting level 70 heroics until I had full normal level dungeon gear back then. Which I think I'd prefer
    My comparison is mostly regarding running them in end of expansion gear.

    I never recall any of the BC heroics turning into a we don't need a tank or we don't need a healer runs like they are with fully geared groups now... at least not to the extent that you can now outgear the content you have now. To me it signifies them overshooting their content by a ridiculous margin with gear.

  9. #49
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    All sorts of goodness here.

    Where to begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naqaj View Post
    First of all, this is an excellent discussion. Thank you to all participants.

    There's one thing Leucifer mentioned that was overlooked a bit, and that I want to pick up again:

    I was quite surprised by your evaluation, since my initial reaction was the exact opposite. From the limited information we know so far, I would have valued Parry to be much more desirable then Dodge, since the average damage reduction should be the same, but the potential to reduce spike damage is much higher with the Parry mechanic.
    There's little ground to speculate about the relative values though until we learn more about how the 3 mechanics are balanced in uptime/rating conversion.
    Quick experiment: Get a buddy and grab two aluminum baseball bats. Head out into the backyard so that the neighbors don't call the cops. Take the two bats and swing them into each other. I mean really crack them two together. Notice how wonderful your arms feel? This is where I agree with parry giving a reduction in damage and the idea of a dodge granting complete reduction. IRL.... massive hits from weapons, parried, could still hurt like hell. Blocking them with a shield even, you could still snap an arm.... if the shield really did stop an attack (depending on the weapon). I do agree with a "parry haste". Parrying, doesn't usually take you out of position for a counterstrike. A full blown dodge.... a lot of times does.

    You are right. All speculation though. I only ask that they factor in the options in ways so as to make tanking a real possibility for all tank classes without punishing any. Frost Pres. effectively at present says: the DK is imbued with ice and thus, physically more resilient. A bear.... heh.... well if you've ever seen one charge a hunter in real life, especially grizzlies... they just don't stop at the first bullet. Mad props to the people waaaaaaaay back when who had to defend themselves with spears and stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by xulev View Post
    Good thread, lots of good points.

    With DK's in general, the thing I see is that they are the only one actually balanced. Every other tank seems to have something or another that puts them out of whack... like block trivializing things or druid tanks ending up with obscene amounts of health... or pallys having block and get out of jail free with faceroll threat. My opinion is that is was mostly warriors and paladins to a degree that caused the real issue of icecrown radiance. The fact that it was possible in toc gear to hit the "unhittable" cap (102.4%) and take regular white hits from mobs off the table... would make it impossible to balance things for the other tanks.
    In THAT perspective.... you have a damn good point. Problem is, which came first? DK came after the fact and though they might present a great model for future use. Problem is, by dropping in that Icecrown radiance, they really laid the hardest hit (in my opinion) to the DK by hitting an avoidance stat. If it were applied to shields (stuff so cold it's brittle for example)... that would have leveled them out maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by xulev View Post
    I do believe blizzard when they say that extra heroic mode gearing was the biggest issue. The fact they overshot their tier gearing by pretty much at least 1 full tier. The best way to illustrate this is to look at heroics. Even in BIS BC gear they weren't a lolfest; note that I'm saying they weren't pretty easy... just not a we don't even need a tank fiasco like it is now. In ICC25 gear raiders you can do most of the heroics out there without a tank as long as you have a plate wearer. If you do have... say a geared pally tank.. they don't even take damage. So they outscaled their content by too big a margin...
    Oh hell yes. Look at the current situation. Who bothers with t7 or t8 gear? When t9 is so readily available, and same with t10, they rendered two whole tiers "moot". Now, I wouldn't say a tank isn't needed for heroics. There is still stuff out there than can crush a t9 equipped tank (taken a shot from a Spellflinger recently? lol) Hell, I'll be honest, I notice the difference doing my farming of Mag Terrace when I swap gear sets.

    Quote Originally Posted by xulev View Post
    I don't think it actually matters with the whole inflation thing regarding gear. You only have to balance for the current expansion. But you have to say by Leucifer's post they need to tone it down a bit. Current raid content should be the only thing they balance for, or realistically can balance for.
    I'd be more than happy to run a more detailed comparison if anyone's interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by xulev View Post
    As for tanks... DK's should be the model for balance. It's a well designed class with distinct feel in every tree and different tank/dps styles. The other tanks are the ones unbalanced.. thru talents or design. You can't design something so one particular tank makes it trivial.. so you either nerf them or ramp up the encounter. Problem is that when you ramp up the encounter you leave the tank (in this case the DK) that isn't up to par out in the off off tank- dpser role. Even so, I don't think dks are so far behind.. at least not on paper. Dk's just don't have any real advantages... With cooldown up and popped they easily are surviveable versus anything in icc; it's just without them they seem to get trashed. For instance... festergut 10 man. Tanking thru one 3 inhale phase is pretty easy... 18 second ibf with 20 second unbreakable armor and I probably take less damage than nearly any other tank. But the nerfs to dks hurt their ability to tank in non cooldown parts too much. They probably should have left dk armor scaling alone...
    THIS.... is an interesting proposal..... and looking at it, I think I see elements of that in what they're doing with Cataclysm. The whole shift in how talents play in and "mastery". But honestly, you have some excellent points/arguments. Compelling.........

    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    You cannot really compare Wrath and TBC heroics in the same way. True, Blood Furnace heroic was tough even in patch 2.4, while Halls of Lightning isn't. But then, Halls of Lightning was hardly a majorly challenging heroic back when we'd just dinged, if I recall correctly - in fact, I was tanking heroic Loken about an hour after I dinged 80. I didn;t dare to dream of hitting level 70 heroics until I had full normal level dungeon gear back then. Which I think I'd prefer
    But again, doesn't this have a lot to do with the scaling of gear? Level 69 gear and level 70 gear was not such a world apart as we see just in level 80 gear. I mean, drops from Ulduar can be replaced with items from the Icecrown Citadel heroics! As much as I love my weapons from heroics, I look and see one of the BEST tanks on my server dragging around his Titanguard while some guy is wandering around with Rimefang's Claw and I just think "Damn, that is a shame.....". I mean, this guy was the whole REASON I got into tanking, seriously was that damn good and I wanted to be LIKE him. He was, and still is, a hardcore raider and one of the most level-headed guys.... but he's jumped to another guild because a lot of the people he ran with quit raiding when all their Ulduar gear was suddenly 1-up'ed.

    In some ways, I'm torn. I like that raiding ICC is something that people can get to experience without having to raid 5 nights a week just to get equipped for. On the downside, well, it's "Lower-the-BarCraft" as my friend calls it.

    But again, part of this was poor encounter design and just poor planning by Blizzard. The players only adapted to what was laid out in front of them.

    All said..........
    Some damn good posts and thoughts being put out here from you guys. I would love to see more people contribute.

  10. #50
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    Wow, yeah. Amazingly good discussions here, and with minimal FUD noise.

    Reading through this definitely makes me feel a bit better about some of the challenges and reactions I've run into playing a DK tank. At first I assumed it was just my lack of experience and/or lack of gear, but lately I've started to doubt my skill as a player. I'm sure these are all real factors, but at least I now have some credible evidence that it's not just me. Thanks for that.

    I'm definitely looking forward to Cataclysm. The design goals seem pretty spot-on from what I can tell. Less spiky damage, more survivability for squishies, no more being forced to keep using a worse bit of gear just because it has more defense stat.

    Honestly, my only disappointment so far with the announced plans for Cataclysm is that they probably won't go as far they really should in the redesign due to concerns over PvP "balance". Why not give all classes a defensive stance, for example? I mean, would it really be so terrible if a rogue could shift into defensive stance when he gets rushed by an elite mob? I'm not suggesting that he should be able to survive for very long if the tank doesn't quickly recover control of the situation, but it would sure open up a lot more interesting play potential if vanish/feign death/etc weren't the only way to avoid getting one-shotted when something goes wrong.

    Right now, at least as a DK tank, the gap between perfect execution of an encounter and a complete wipe is razor thin (a few seconds in most cases). Although this is often fun and challenging for me, especially when running with guildmates who have some patience for planning and strategy, it can also be very frustrating when I see a pally tank charge into the same encounter without so much as a backward glance to see whether the healer or dps are ready (or even in the same room yet!).

    The classic instances are nicely forgiving, but also perhaps a bit too forgiving, definitely too big (notable exception being SM, which rocks), and too slow (so much boring trash to grind through).

    TBC instances improved on classic in a major way by being much smaller and requiring a lot more strategic planning, but perhaps lacked some excitement because everything was so reliant on strategy (as opposed to timing and execution).

    WotLK brought a vast improvement in the excitement and adrenaline level of the game with so many new timing mechanics, etc., but perhaps went overboard in this direction because the pace of the action (as in most action games) rarely allows much creative strategic planning or flexible tactics other than knowing when to hit your cooldowns or look/run away.

    If Cataclysm can find a way to merge and balance the best parts of the earlier versions -- a bit less harsh on the action timing, a bit stronger role for creative strategy and flexible tactics -- while also introducing a few good new concepts, and without introducing to many new hidden gotchas, then it will be a very welcome change indeed. The dev team definitely seems to be heading in the right direction, and they already have an impressive track record of previous improvements to the game, so I'm very optimistic about their chances to pull it off.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post
    Right now, at least as a DK tank, the gap between perfect execution of an encounter and a complete wipe is razor thin (a few seconds in most cases). Although this is often fun and challenging for me, especially when running with guildmates who have some patience for planning and strategy, it can also be very frustrating when I see a pally tank charge into the same encounter without so much as a backward glance to see whether the healer or dps are ready (or even in the same room yet!).
    Couldn't have said it any better. Really share in the frustration you feel with this one. I love tanking as a DK because it is a challenge, but I really have to agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urythmic View Post
    The classic instances are nicely forgiving, but also perhaps a bit too forgiving, definitely too big (notable exception being SM, which rocks), and too slow (so much boring trash to grind through).

    TBC instances improved on classic in a major way by being much smaller and requiring a lot more strategic planning, but perhaps lacked some excitement because everything was so reliant on strategy (as opposed to timing and execution).

    WotLK brought a vast improvement in the excitement and adrenaline level of the game with so many new timing mechanics, etc., but perhaps went overboard in this direction because the pace of the action (as in most action games) rarely allows much creative strategic planning or flexible tactics other than knowing when to hit your cooldowns or look/run away.

    If Cataclysm can find a way to merge and balance the best parts of the earlier versions -- a bit less harsh on the action timing, a bit stronger role for creative strategy and flexible tactics -- while also introducing a few good new concepts, and without introducing to many new hidden gotchas, then it will be a very welcome change indeed. The dev team definitely seems to be heading in the right direction, and they already have an impressive track record of previous improvements to the game, so I'm very optimistic about their chances to pull it off.
    Have to agree with this assessment too. The classic dungeons are nice..... but many were just too damn long. Maraudon comes to mind.... >.<

    Honestly, one thing I've found that I LOVE is..... achievements!
    When they first came out, I really thought, "meh, whatever". Some though really make you step back and TAKE a more challenging approach to a problem. A good example: Watch Him Die. This one can be completed in a LOT of different ways, depending on your group's make-up. I know, you're thinking "well, so what, you don't HAVE to do the achievement". Well, that is EXACTLY what I love about it. For a person like me who LOVES the challenge, I have an option to try something that the devs saw as being possible as a challenge, but leave it up to us to find a way to accomplish it. There's even a satisfying reward for doing a bunch of these, which I love.

    That.... is something that I really hope Blizzard keeps up with and doesn't do away with, because I think it's something that really opened up WotLK and made it more fun in the long run. It's a way of making the player take a look at something they have done before and putting it in a different perspective, and it's done in a way that doesn't "punish" the people who might find the content "challenging enough". Now, what I'll be doing after I finish them all? I don't really know. /casts eyes on Ulduar achievements......

    You made some great points though. I guess my expansion to it would be..... keep the achieves... and maybe introduce more or something similar to give those of us who really want some extra challenges the option.

  12. #52
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    Keep in mind that dk tanks are still a cooldown tank, which is what blizz always stressed as their design.

    A lot of your surviveability is going to be dictated by using cooldowns wisely.

    As frost I've gone with stacking armor (about 34k unbuffed, 36ish raid buffed or so; with 20 seconds of ~44kish armor every minute). Use anti magic shell when you need it.. trinkets.. and IBF when the damage ramps up. The 3 basic cooldowns that dks have give you a lot of defensive power. 1 on a 2 minute cooldown and 2 on 1 minute cooldowns.. IBF is still VERY powerful with a much lower cooldown that most other tanks primary defensive abilities. The reason for the nerf on ibf (from 1 minute to 2 minutes) was obviously that if you use your cooldowns and space them out properly... you could have something up nearly all the time, which is when dk tanks are powerful. Now you have to be a bit selective, but each tree has it's one minute cooldown defensive ability.. which are quite good.

  13. #53
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    Thanks, Leucifer!

    Quote Originally Posted by xulev View Post
    Keep in mind that dk tanks are still a cooldown tank, which is what blizz always stressed as their design.

    A lot of your surviveability is going to be dictated by using cooldowns wisely.

    As frost I've gone with stacking armor (about 34k unbuffed, 36ish raid buffed or so; with 20 seconds of ~44kish armor every minute). Use anti magic shell when you need it.. trinkets.. and IBF when the damage ramps up. The 3 basic cooldowns that dks have give you a lot of defensive power. 1 on a 2 minute cooldown and 2 on 1 minute cooldowns.. IBF is still VERY powerful with a much lower cooldown that most other tanks primary defensive abilities. The reason for the nerf on ibf (from 1 minute to 2 minutes) was obviously that if you use your cooldowns and space them out properly... you could have something up nearly all the time, which is when dk tanks are powerful. Now you have to be a bit selective, but each tree has it's one minute cooldown defensive ability.. which are quite good.
    Very true. However, I have to agree with others about Blood tank now being the more stable spec to play. I actually prefer frost tanking for the excitement, but it's a lot easier to survive with all that extra health and healing in blood, especially if your healer ever goes oom, gets silenced, etc. Since I respecced to blood recently, even running 5-mans I've noticed my health riding above 41K with kings/stoneblood/etc., which seems like 3-5K more than I ever hit with frost spec. Running ToC-normal last night (yes, still trying to get the Black Heart) I noticed the healer went oom during the Confessor fight and my health was dropping dangerously low. I popped my cooldown macro (Vampiric Blood, Rune Tap, Gift of the Naaru) and started spamming Death Strike. Finished the fight with almost full health.

    Yeah, I definitely miss my old Howling Blast aoe snap threat, but the recent changes to Icy Touch help to offset this a lot (makes it so much easier to grab single-target aggro on any mobs that got away from my Blood Boil, etc.).

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Problem is, by dropping in that Icecrown radiance, they really laid the hardest hit (in my opinion) to the DK by hitting an avoidance stat. If it were applied to shields (stuff so cold it's brittle for example)... that would have leveled them out maybe.
    So only Pallys and Warriors would be affect? Dodge actually makes more sense (slower reaction time - so dodge) rather than brittle, which would be better reflected in more durability lost rather than any decrease in actual damage blocked.

    Mechanically, I'm not sure how how losing 20 percentage points from dodge impacts a DK tank any different than a warrior tank. As a warrior tank, just like you, 1 out of every 5 avoided attacks is now a hit. Before the avoidance hit I still had block and you still had stronger CDs (from the discussion) for mitigation.

    After the debuff we both are in the same place, taking an extra hit we would have avoided. I'm not a DK tank, so I don't understand the ins and outs of it - but all tanks are getting hit more often for the same amount (those 1 in 5 hits that aren't avoided anymore are also not blocked by shields either - they come in clean regardless of the tank type).

    I guess I don't understand how this impacts any one tank class more than any other class. The same number of additonal hits for all seems pretty uniform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    So only Pallys and Warriors would be affect? Dodge actually makes more sense (slower reaction time - so dodge) rather than brittle, which would be better reflected in more durability lost rather than any decrease in actual damage blocked.

    Mechanically, I'm not sure how how losing 20 percentage points from dodge impacts a DK tank any different than a warrior tank. As a warrior tank, just like you, 1 out of every 5 avoided attacks is now a hit. Before the avoidance hit I still had block and you still had stronger CDs (from the discussion) for mitigation.

    After the debuff we both are in the same place, taking an extra hit we would have avoided. I'm not a DK tank, so I don't understand the ins and outs of it - but all tanks are getting hit more often for the same amount (those 1 in 5 hits that aren't avoided anymore are also not blocked by shields either - they come in clean regardless of the tank type).

    I guess I don't understand how this impacts any one tank class more than any other class. The same number of additonal hits for all seems pretty uniform.
    Ok. Quick question Logan.

    Warrior Tank has what avoidance mechanics? Dodge, Parry, Block
    Pally Tank has what avoidance mechanics? Dodge, Parry, Block

    DK's and Druids have what?..... Dodge.... Parry.... and that's it.

    When you debuff 1/3 of a warrior/pally's avoidance abilities.... it hurts.
    When you debuff 1/2 of a DK's or Druid's avoidance abilities.... it hurts worse.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Ok. Quick question Logan.

    Warrior Tank has what avoidance mechanics? Dodge, Parry, Block
    Pally Tank has what avoidance mechanics? Dodge, Parry, Block

    DK's and Druids have what?..... Dodge.... Parry.... and that's it.

    When you debuff 1/3 of a warrior/pally's avoidance abilities.... it hurts.
    When you debuff 1/2 of a DK's or Druid's avoidance abilities.... it hurts worse.
    Ok. Quick question Leucifer.

    Since when is Block avoidance? It's not. It's mitigation. It's like your CDs. It's like bears' insane HP pool. It's mitigation. Block =/= Avoidance, don't even pretend blocking 1400 damage of a 10k hit (after armor) is the same as avoiding the entire 10k hit.

    If pre debuff:
    Warrior has 45 avoidance
    Pally has 45 avoidance
    DK has 45 avoidance
    Druid has 45 avoidance

    And post debuff
    Warrior has 25 avoidance
    Pally has 25 avoidance
    DK has 25 avoidance
    Druid has 25 avoidance

    Who is hurt most?

    No one.

    Pallys/Warriors have a sheild. Druids have a larger HP pool. DKs have more CDs. And Blood DK/Pallys tanks have self-healing.

    Just because Pallys/Warriors have a sheild doesn't mean they have a tool no one else does. By your logic, of affecting shield block, to balance tanks out, you'd need to nerf bear HPs by some amount and increase the CDs on DKs abilities by some amount. Dodge is a mechanic everyone has, and typically all tanks have >20%. The dodge debuff hits all tanks equally.

    -20% avoidance is -20% avoidance regardless of what tools you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Ok. Quick question Leucifer.

    Since when is Block avoidance? It's not. It's mitigation. It's like your CDs. It's like bears' insane HP pool. It's mitigation. Block =/= Avoidance, don't even pretend blocking 1400 damage of a 10k hit (after armor) is the same as avoiding the entire 10k hit.

    If pre debuff:
    Warrior has 45 avoidance
    Pally has 45 avoidance
    DK has 45 avoidance
    Druid has 45 avoidance

    And post debuff
    Warrior has 25 avoidance
    Pally has 25 avoidance
    DK has 25 avoidance
    Druid has 25 avoidance

    Who is hurt most?

    No one.

    Pallys/Warriors have a sheild. Druids have a larger HP pool. DKs have more CDs. And Blood DK/Pallys tanks have self-healing.

    Just because Pallys/Warriors have a sheild doesn't mean they have a tool no one else does. By your logic, of affecting shield block, to balance tanks out, you'd need to nerf bear HPs by some amount and increase the CDs on DKs abilities by some amount. Dodge is a mechanic everyone has, and typically all tanks have >20%. The dodge debuff hits all tanks equally.

    -20% avoidance is -20% avoidance regardless of what tools you have.
    From WoWWikki:

    The ability of a shield to absorb melee damage in addition to its armor value. When a shield is equipped, you have a certain chance to perform a Block. The basic chance to block an attack is indicated on your character sheet under the Defense tab. This value assumes that you fight against a mob or other character of same level. Fighting a mob of higher level than yourself decreases your chance to Block, and vice versa.
    Your base chance to block an attack is 5% and this is modified by a factor of the rating difference between the attacker's weapon skill and the defender's defense and block rating. Each point of difference adjusts the base chance by 0.1% if the target is a mob and 0.04% if the target is a player. Mobs level 9 and lower do not block as frequently, just as they are not missed as frequently as they should be. Also, mobs cannot block more than 5% of attacks regardless of rating difference.
    The amount of damage a Block reduces depends on the block value of your shield, any enchantments, talents and your Strength. Damage reduced by blocking is calculated after other damage reducing factors, such as armor, which increases the effectiveness of blocking.
    Ok. So it's NOT avoidance.
    It's an automated damage mitigation tool. A free chance to reduce incoming damage that DK's and Druids do not have.

    OH. And yes, warriors do get a cooldown block ability too. Shield Block

    So, once again.... they have an automated shield block..... which has a chance to reduce incoming damage.... and a cooldown that GUARANTEES reducing incoming damage.

    Bears.... don't have block. DK's.... don't have block. We get extra health and maybe one cooldown to make up for the lack thereof.

    Now, please consider this also.
    When you're looking for a tank in realm, and I see posts for a 2900 GS tank.... I know, that MY 2900 GS as a DK means I have a LOT of tier 10 gear. For a warrior, who has a shield..... they might have the equivalent armor set to my tier 9 set. So, my 2500 GS DK tank is really on par with that 2700 GS warrior. (+200 points for just about any shield from heroics).

    But good luck convincing anyone of that.

    As for your idea that to "balance", druids should lose some health and DK's some cooldowns, wow...... that alone tells me you've not tried tanking as either. Try it sometime. Tell me that you could use fewer cooldowns as a DK. Tell me that a druid could use less health as they look at the incoming damage and realize.... "oh wow.. I only have 1 tool to stave off this beating... and it sucks my rage away.... shit".

    Right now.... here's how I see it.

    1) Pally tank - Sitting at top of heap. Tanking bliss atm.
    2) Warrior - Only thing holding them back from the top spot is they don't have some of the save-my-ass tricks of a pally
    3) Druid - Massive health pool and swipe make for push-button agg control
    4) DK - You will work your ass off... maybe not in this heroic... but in ICC.... or in ToGC..... or....
    Last edited by Leucifer; 04-06-2010 at 09:02 AM.

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    The key point is if block overpowered shield users versus non sheild users - the effect would be the same in ICC and out of ICC. That's not the case. Each tanking class is roughly equivlaent with things some do better than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    From WoWWikki:
    Ok. So it's NOT avoidance.
    It's an automated damage mitigation tool. A free chance to reduce incoming damage that DK's and Druids do not have.

    OH. And yes, warriors do get a cooldown block ability too. Shield Block

    So, once again.... they have an automated shield block..... which has a chance to reduce incoming damage.... and a cooldown that GUARANTEES reducing incoming damage.
    Unless I'm completely off the mark, you've misunderstood how Sheild Block works (granted I actually haven't used it outside of combat to check the tooltip) - it's 2x block chance for 2x block value. Not 100% block chance for 100% of damage. So 18% chance to block 1500 damage becomes 36% chance to block 3000 damage for 10 seconds.

    I'm not going to go much further down the path of specifics because it will result in a lock thread.

    Blizzard already built in a compensation mechanic for the lack of block. They would have had to or DKs would not be a viable tanking class because they would be so far below other classes in surviability. The mechanic, as I understand it, is that DK CDs have a greater uptime.

    Specifically though Icy Talons is the DK version of block (I just looked at Frost, not sure what blood/unholy have). 5/5 removes 1 boss swing out of 6 (20% reduction in attack speed - which equates to roughly 16.66% additional avoidence, hits that never land). That compares quite equally to Block, which for most warriors is ~15-20% and is mitigation.

    Would you agree this mechanic smooths the playing field between shield users and Dks?

    As for bears - their HP pool does that naturally. Right now in ICC buffed, I'm around 52k HP - I've seen similarlly geared bears in Heroics running with 60k HP, which would make it 66k HP. So would you agree that 14k HP roughly equates to mitgating roughly 1500-3000 damage every fifth attack or so (on average)? <And wouldn't the mechanics of savage defense work almost exactly like block? After crit, next hit is reduced by 25% of the bear's AP - functionally a block without a shield given bears get crit from agility and ap from agility and have agility on all gear>

    This isn't class warfare - Each class has different tools. Nerfing only shield block in ICC would only negatively impact shield users, reducing their surviability while not impacting non-shield wearing tanks. That's why Dodge was chosen, I think. It impacts all tanks equally and in the same way. No need to make class-specific adjustments.



    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Bears.... don't have block. DK's.... don't have block. We get extra health and maybe one cooldown to make up for the lack thereof.
    As above - yes, you do. And what you get makes up for roughly what block gives shield users.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Now, please consider this also.
    When you're looking for a tank in realm, and I see posts for a 2900 GS tank.... I know, that MY 2900 GS as a DK means I have a LOT of tier 10 gear. For a warrior, who has a shield..... they might have the equivalent armor set to my tier 9 set. So, my 2500 GS DK tank is really on par with that 2700 GS warrior. (+200 points for just about any shield from heroics).

    But good luck convincing anyone of that.
    GS = lazy. It's a 3rd party tool that doesn't fit perfectly into WoW. This is more a complaint of the calculations of the 3rd party gear score system and the lazyness of the players not to actually check gear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    As for your idea that to "balance", druids should lose some health and DK's some cooldowns, wow...... that alone tells me you've not tried tanking as either. Try it sometime. Tell me that you could use fewer cooldowns as a DK. Tell me that a druid could use less health as they look at the incoming damage and realize.... "oh wow.. I only have 1 tool to stave off this beating... and it sucks my rage away.... shit".
    No, I haven't. And the fact you think shield block is overpowered would indicate much the same for Warriors. Right now Pallys, DKs, Bears, and Warriors are roughly equal as tanks - though it does seem that everyone agrees Pallys are a little more equal than others.

    Think about what you're suggesting though - that nerfing a signficant portion of 2 tanking classes with no corresponding reduction to the other 2 tanking classes levels the playing field. That's just wrong.

    The ICC debuff does not affect any single class more than any other. It hits us ALL the same way. We take 1 additional hit from every 5 swings (roughly). It's equal across the board. After bears HP, Frost DK's Icy Talons, Warriors block, we're still all the same.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Right now.... here's how I see it.

    1) Pally tank - Sitting at top of heap. Tanking bliss atm.
    2) Warrior - Only thing holding them back from the top spot is they don't have some of the save-my-ass tricks of a pally
    3) Druid - Massive health pool and swipe make for push-button agg control
    4) DK - You will work your ass off... maybe not in this heroic... but in ICC.... or in ToGC..... or....
    It does seem to me as well that Pallys have the 'easiest' go. But looking at Warriors, Bears, and DKs, it seems all 3 are fairly equal - each has holes in their tanking abilities (I can only dream as a warrior tank of the the ability to sleepwalk through AoE aggro that all other tanks have - or the self healing that blood DKs or pallys have). Each of us covets some set of abilities that the others have, dreaming of them.

    But the fact is, when you look at it, we're all fairly equal, just in different ways. As for working your ass off - ICC challenges all tanks. The only fight so far (outside of gunship) that I've seen that is 'easy' is Morrowgar, where the key to victory rests almost soley on the DPS. The rest work you and require your concentration, and once you get to Rotface/Fester, challenge any progressing tank.

    ****

    Blizzard has tweaked tanks to be roughly equal. Targeting a non-shared ability would only impact the classes with that ability and not the others, completely unbalancing the ability for any class to tank the raid.

    Blizzard chose to cause all tanks to get hit more often. It affects all tanks equally. We ALL get hit by 1 out of 5 swings (on average) more in ICC than out. Any other 'imbalance' that shields create would be as evident outside of ICC as in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    The key point is if block overpowered shield users versus non sheild users - the effect would be the same in ICC and out of ICC. That's not the case. Each tanking class is roughly equivlaent with things some do better than others.

    Unless I'm completely off the mark, you've misunderstood how Sheild Block works (granted I actually haven't used it outside of combat to check the tooltip) - it's 2x block chance for 2x block value. Not 100% block chance for 100% of damage. So 18% chance to block 1500 damage becomes 36% chance to block 3000 damage for 10 seconds.

    I'm not going to go much further down the path of specifics because it will result in a lock thread.
    Fair enough. We could probably beat this horse dead.... raise it with Raise Ally and then beat it dead again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Blizzard already built in a compensation mechanic for the lack of block. They would have had to or DKs would not be a viable tanking class because they would be so far below other classes in surviability. The mechanic, as I understand it, is that DK CDs have a greater uptime.

    Specifically though Icy Talons is the DK version of block (I just looked at Frost, not sure what blood/unholy have). 5/5 removes 1 boss swing out of 6 (20% reduction in attack speed - which equates to roughly 16.66% additional avoidence, hits that never land). That compares quite equally to Block, which for most warriors is ~15-20% and is mitigation.

    Would you agree this mechanic smooths the playing field between shield users and Dks?
    No. On this I completely disagree. You're confused as to the mechanics. How is Frost Fever (which is really the effect we're looking at here) comparable to a block? What you are describing is the DK equivalent to Thunder Clap and Improved Thunder Clap. Please.... compare those to this Frost Fever and this Improved Icy Touch. The warrior abilities and the DK abilities are DAMN near mirrors of each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    As for bears - their HP pool does that naturally. Right now in ICC buffed, I'm around 52k HP - I've seen similarlly geared bears in Heroics running with 60k HP, which would make it 66k HP. So would you agree that 14k HP roughly equates to mitgating roughly 1500-3000 damage every fifth attack or so (on average)? <And wouldn't the mechanics of savage defense work almost exactly like block? After crit, next hit is reduced by 25% of the bear's AP - functionally a block without a shield given bears get crit from agility and ap from agility and have agility on all gear>
    Ah. See, this is an area where I need to catch up. lol Last I seriously tanked as a bear was BC (this passive was introduced in 3.1). I'm still very familiar with the pros/cons of the class though. Yeah. I will agree with what you say on this. Legitimately, pretty equivalent to a block.... or maybe even better really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    This isn't class warfare - Each class has different tools. Nerfing only shield block in ICC would only negatively impact shield users, reducing their surviability while not impacting non-shield wearing tanks. That's why Dodge was chosen, I think. It impacts all tanks equally and in the same way. No need to make class-specific adjustments.
    Yeah. My apologies for coming across like that if I did. I'll be honest.... I think the whole thing around the ICC debuff.... it was done because the encounters were broken, which takes us back to the thread's original topic. They HAD to do something to increase the challenge level and get it where they wanted it for tanks, and I think they chose a "lazy way out". Yes, it was applied evenly to all tanks. Problem is... I don't think they really realized how it affects different classes fully. I do think it was an attempt to prevent things like this: Rogue Tanking in Black Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    GS = lazy. It's a 3rd party tool that doesn't fit perfectly into WoW. This is more a complaint of the calculations of the 3rd party gear score system and the lazyness of the players not to actually check gear.
    AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH YOU. Gear score blows. It's for lazy people who don't want to take the time to actually find out if a person can really play their class or not and if they can assemble a well-functioning build. I have one person I know on my realm (who shall remain completely anonymous) who has their incredible gear score because they mixed defense gear and dps gear on their DK. /facepalm And they wonder why they're well behind in the dps ranks.
    I, personally, hate gearscore. So much is tied to a player's skill. ..... Ok. I need to step off this soapbox now and stop beating this subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    No, I haven't. And the fact you think shield block is overpowered would indicate much the same for Warriors. Right now Pallys, DKs, Bears, and Warriors are roughly equal as tanks - though it does seem that everyone agrees Pallys are a little more equal than others.
    Pally does seem a bit ahead. Warrior can still be a challenge (as much as I love playing that class - I've had to delete a couple and keep only two). I would say bears and DK's are about even.... warriors a bit ahead (again.... this class is HEAVILY dependent on skill). But that's just my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Think about what you're suggesting though - that nerfing a signficant portion of 2 tanking classes with no corresponding reduction to the other 2 tanking classes levels the playing field. That's just wrong.
    Back up. You suggested nerfing the cooldowns on DK's. Let me tell you, they are not all that and a bag of chips. DK's have just FINALLY gotten a bump UP with 3.3.3 that was sorely needed. DK cooldowns CAN be great. To get enough to make a significant impact... costs a lot. The down time on some makes it a thing where you really need to pick and choose when to use and how deep you go with them. Pop more than one... and if something bad happens in the not-too-distant future... kiss your ass goodbye. Personally... I'll usually pop either IBF or AMS, depending on the effect. If I REALLY need a bump, I'll pop one with Vampiric Blood if I know the healer is going to have to use a faster but less powerful heal immediately afterwards to keep me going. If I'm popping all three..... I'm pretty tapped out for a while and if anything really heavy comes raining down after that, I'm done unless the healer is really lucky/good/both.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    The ICC debuff does not affect any single class more than any other. It hits us ALL the same way. We take 1 additional hit from every 5 swings (roughly). It's equal across the board. After bears HP, Frost DK's Icy Talons, Warriors block, we're still all the same.
    Well, you've already heard my rebuttal to the Icy Talons (which I think you meant Improved Icy Touch). Agree with you on bears. Still think it's a bit of a slap to DK's, but I do see your view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    It does seem to me as well that Pallys have the 'easiest' go. But looking at Warriors, Bears, and DKs, it seems all 3 are fairly equal - each has holes in their tanking abilities (I can only dream as a warrior tank of the the ability to sleepwalk through AoE aggro that all other tanks have - or the self healing that blood DKs or pallys have). Each of us covets some set of abilities that the others have, dreaming of them.
    I'd say bears/dk's/warriors are the closest in the spectrum. And as a DK.... I share your dream. I watch bears and pally with envy. And thunder clap for warriors.... it just seems to work so nicely. I can understand the self-heals, but we really need them to counter-act our squishiness. I've had more than a few healers comment that DK's feel squishy, so I don't think it's just me.

    I would agree that DK's / Bears / Warriors are at least "more on par" though. Each of these have holes that make for an interesting balance. Pally just seems to not have any at this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    But the fact is, when you look at it, we're all fairly equal, just in different ways. As for working your ass off - ICC challenges all tanks. The only fight so far (outside of gunship) that I've seen that is 'easy' is Morrowgar, where the key to victory rests almost soley on the DPS. The rest work you and require your concentration, and once you get to Rotface/Fester, challenge any progressing tank.
    ICC is a challenge for all tanks. Agreed. Everything there just kinda levels the playing field in that all tanks become very.... uh.... death-prone. lol Marrowgar didn't feel bad as a tank once we got coordinated a bit. Same with Saurfang, which to me, seemed to be not as challenging as the OT. Less movement... just had to focus more on keeping the bounce-the-boss act going. I'd have to say at this point though.... ALL OF ICC demands more from the dps. I'm sorry, but slacker dps... and you know what I'm talking about.... just doesn't cut it there. You HAVE to be paying attention. Especially on stuff like Rotface/Festergut/Saurfang.


    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Blizzard has tweaked tanks to be roughly equal. Targeting a non-shared ability would only impact the classes with that ability and not the others, completely unbalancing the ability for any class to tank the raid.

    Blizzard chose to cause all tanks to get hit more often. It affects all tanks equally. We ALL get hit by 1 out of 5 swings (on average) more in ICC than out. Any other 'imbalance' that shields create would be as evident outside of ICC as in.
    Fair enough. I just really think they designed ICC poorly to begin with..... got it into beta and found the results NOT to their liking in regards to tanks..... and just slapped the debuff as a quick fix to make ICC feel more the way they wanted. I really think a LOT of the fights would go differently if we went in with full dodge.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 04-06-2010 at 12:25 PM.

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    Greetings

    Thought I'd add my 2 cents. I currently have an 80 of each tanking classes and have MT ICC 25 groups with three of them, (The other, my pally, is not yet geared for it).

    In my expierence there is little difference in the capability of each class to tank in ICC, they each have there strong and weak aspects but overall I have yet one of the classes at more then a marginal disadvantage at any point.

    The dodge debuff struck me as the proper way to lower overall avoidance as it reduces the avoidance off all tank equally. Alot of the percieved inbalance of the debuff seems to be oriented around the fact that some tank classes rely more on dodge then others but as the debuff is a fixed amount a druid with 45% dodge will still have 25% comapred to a warrior with 25% dropping to 5%, so the class that has always relied more on dodge still have the same margin of dodge more then others.

    The block mechanic seems equally countered by the druids crit shield and the DKs shorter CDs. The DK's shorter CDs even give the tank more control then the RNG based block and crit shield mechanics.
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