I've been working on a tank with a priest friend and I've noticed I've been bitched out if I'm not pulling more then 5 targets. mages, locks, any heavy aoe classes won't do anything if I'm pulling 2 or 3 mobs they just sit there picking their butt while I'm stuck beating things till its dead instend of the dps helping, very annoying. any one else notice this? and if you are a AoE class STOP IT >:0
I think its the luck-of-the-draw. I doubt every single person or in this case "AOE class" will act this way. I have noticed some heroics I've done in the pass want me to chain pull (which is fine) but I haven't had this experience. It's possible the members in your group were just "elitist" who assume every warrior has the capability to tank 5 mobs.
When people want me to pull faster than I want to, I ignore them. I pull plenty fast on my own, thank you.
The worst case I've had of this was a holy paladin who started the H HoL run by saying, "pull as fast as you want to." OK. Cool, a healer who can keep up. So I pull the first group, and while we're finishing them, he pulls the next group back to me. I pick them up and we start to work on them. While we've just only started, he runs ahead again and aggros the next group and the lightning charged boss. I just said, "go ahead and tank then," and zoned out. He died and dropped group, and I got myself a real healer and cleared the place in like 15 minutes or less.
I don't want to bring the class vs. class debate into this arguement too much..... but that unfortunately is the source of the problem.
Maybe, I could be wrong on a few points here.
Specifically, paladin tanks are too good at their AoE threat outputs (and to an extent, damage as well). Even Blizzard is aware of this particular issue. All too often, even with the buffs to AoE tanking for the more lacking classes (warriors come to mind in particular), paladins are still miles ahead. A lot of the time, it leads to DPS getting lazy with their aggro management as well as making them extremely impatient. This impatience is further encouraged by how pally tanks operate, they quickly move from group to group to keep Divine Plea up (lasts 15 secs, 1 min CD, refreshed upon hitting something). When these DPS get complacent (or lazy, if you prefer the term) with how well pally tanks work, and get another tank class.... it doesn't translate too well.
Link:
http://www.wow.com/2010/01/25/ghostc...is-probably-t/
The article and the post linked within note that Blizz primarily focuses on single target threat outputs, and just about all tank classes are fine in that department. The gulf between them on AoE threat still exists, though every class has the ability to AoE tank somewhat to prevent situations seen in the Shattered Halls and Mt. Hyjal.
Exactly where to go with this? It's frustrating to deal with, that much is certain. Many players take the easy way out, and right now in regards to AoE tanking, that falls into the realm of paladins. Very simple and stupidly effective, to the point DPS is getting lazy about it. Class imbalances are fine to an extent, as you'll never honestly get it right without removing all diversity. But the problem has reared it's ugly head not as a matter of how the tanks themselves play.... but how DPS react to it. You can be lazy with pally tanks, and as such many players are.
He who isn't afraid to stand by his ideals...
Isn't afraid to stand alone.
I haven't noticed this exact behavior, but lazy dps in heroics is a fact of life these days. They want their 2 frosts and don't want to have to put in too much or any effort.
I've seen people who AoE on anything and everything, from single trash mobs in a heroic ("worst warlock evar" that spammed Rain of Fire throughout an entire H VH run) to raid bosses (yup, that's right: I saw a hunter cast volley on top of Patchwerk).
But not DPS at all when there's something to shoot at? Nope.
Oh, I've seen rogues who refused to dps anything but bosses also. Kind of goes both ways I guess.
I don't disagree that Pally generate more AoE threat than the other tanks. But I thought I should point a few things out.Originally Posted by Loremaster Roht
Pallies don't do AoE threat great in two situations:
on the move and when there are more than x number of mobs (I don't know what x is, but listening to my pally co-tank struggle on Ony whelps was amusing, while my Warrior had no issues).
The reason is that they lose consecration on the move. And other than that, all their abilities are target capped. Plus the fact that they've never had great AoE snap threat (beyond x mobs, 3 I think?). So ya, they can pull big mobs and hold them, but don't think it's a *total* face roll for them.
Also, while they do like to chain pull to keep divine plea up (watch how mad they get if you kill all the zombies in CoT) let me introduce you to an article on why warriors *love* to chain pull.
http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/08/2...-like-a-champ/
Edit: OK, So Vene says it's not quite chain pulling, but he also wrote that pre-WotLK when you actually had to set up CC for pulls and such.
3 <= x <= 6. That's the range of how many mobs they can hit w/ their primary direct dmg threat abilities - Avenger's Shield and Hammer of the Righteous. Both hit 3 total targets, and both on are on cd's.
By comarison, Wars w/ Thunder Clap + Shockwave + Demo Shout are hitting all 20 whelps with both their AoE nukes and DoTs. Throw in reflective dmg and tab-spam Cleave for even more AoE threat. Frost DK's w/ Howling Blast + DnD + BB + Diseases also have no problem holding 20 whelps, esp when HB is critting them all for 5k+ every few seconds.
Last edited by Kurtosis; 02-25-2010 at 03:10 PM.
I've never had anyone complain about going too slowly, the opposite usually "slow down I'm oom". I run heroics in my Frost spec and just spam HB+BB, pretty mind-numbing actually. But people pulling mobs for me is a huuuuge annoyance, as a DK I have to manage my runes carefully as I move from group to group. Some over zealous hunter who thinks he can pull then FD while all my runes are on CD finds himself without a tank. I've never had a dps refuse to do thier job, so far. It's more likely I have a dps go afk at the door until we are the near the final boss, then die to some mob we skipped while screaming "wait for me ken i haz rez pl0x" then roll need on everything that drops. More often than not we're at the final boss before the vote-kick lockout has expired. You have to laugh, well I do, or I'd probably punch my computer.
[ vine's TankUI & HealUI ] *UPDATED*
Some very good points there, though in many heroics the pulls are often smaller than this currently unknown X value. The main thing seems to be the pickup of pulls, when you think about it. Consecration ticks pretty quickly, and pallies will have a something resembling an aggro death-grip on them. Comparing to tanking on warrior, if one mob is either outside shockwave, doesn't get hit by cleave, nor touched by your single target attacks? Only has Thunderclap & Demo Shout hit them at all?
Murphy's Law just LOVES to come into play here. Because that one mob is the almost guaranteed to be hit by a pyroblast crit or something similiar.
Consecration's constant ticking is usually enough to keep things under control.
Or maybe I'm just annoyed at the general lack of intelligence and aggro management from players in random heroics these days, as well as w as the mindnumbing lack of activity of my pally alt. Frustration or boredom, two situations which aren't pleasing for anyone. It can get to ya a bit.
I'm not really sure why Pallies struggle with Ony's whelps really, as warriors should be affected by the same AoE damage caps. Possible reasons may be Demo Shout not being limited in any way, Challenging Shout, and maybe the added boosts to Damage Shield with Shield Block up. Maybe the particular pally didn't have Ret Aura up, and Holy Shield charges would be eaten through very quickly, leaving their only reliable AoE threat to be Consecrate. Damage Shield is passive, so we never lose it (provided we're wearing a shield), and don't have to worry about having the right aura up.
And as for the link, that fairly accurately describes the general pull-rate I use most of the time on my warrior. Not quite chain-pulling, but minimal downtime between pulls. It keeps most people happy, except for the very impatient players. The ones who seemingly don't even wait long enough to loot dead pulls, which just seems utterly ludicrous.... and yet, that is what some people seem to expect these days.
He who isn't afraid to stand by his ideals...
Isn't afraid to stand alone.
In my experience the aoe spammers are usually the ones that post recount stats when they hit no.1 like it means something. Last night had a hunter bragging about his dps. Yeah he was number one (not by much), but 65% of his damage was coming from volley. AoE spam does jack all on single target boss fights and IMHO, thats what seperates the good dps from lazy dps: the ability to pump out consistently good dps whether targeting multiple mobs or single targets.
I'll mention that X is only unknown to me because I don't play a Pally. I've tanked with them, and pulled plenty of mobs off them when dps-ing to know that it exists not just in theory but in practice as well.
This is very true. DPS someone love to pick on the target I have the least threat on. In terms of grabbing an AoE pack it's usually a caster that's standing out of range of everything. BE's, DKs and Warriors have some nice tools for picking them up though (Arcane Torrent, DG/Strangulate, Heroic Throw respectively).Murphy's Law just LOVES to come into play here. Because that one mob is the almost guaranteed to be hit by a pyroblast crit or something similiar.
To avoid turning this into a full blown class comparison thread (and a lock) I won't respond to the rest of your post except to say that Thunderclap has no target limit. That, along with Shockwave gives Warriors 2 uncapped high threat abilities, which honestly other tanks get jealous of too (I'm sure not all, but some). Even on 10 man, Ony spawns more than enough whelps per side to overwhelm a Pally's target limit, while a warrior has plenty of tools to smack them around with.
I know you said you have a pally alt, but don't overestimate Consecrate. It's great for some things (standing on during wave events so that things that body aggro you go to the tank instead). And terrible for other things (holding aggro against actual dps).
On Topic:
When I play my dps warrior I *hate* big pulls, since I lack AoE and just can't get into a groove to wind up my rotation. For some reason this always turns me into a button masher and I feel and look incompetent.
However, on my unholy dk I *love* big pulls, since I lack good gear and can use the big pulls to inflate my dps to look respectable compared to the other two dps
But, when I see a tank running around grabbing lots of mobs. I tend not to do anything until he stops moving since experience (both as dps and tank) has taught me that a tank's aggro on the run usually won't hold up against a 10k MS when I'm on my warrior and when I'm on my DK I want to make sure he puts the mob somewhere my DnD is going to be.
selling palas a bit short there, and over-estimating warrior aoe.
Demo shout does not qualify as a threat move (threat divided by number of targets, and roughly equivalent to a rend-tic on 1 target).
Consecrate is comparable to tclap, probably superior over time.
Hammer of the Righteous can be glyphed to 4 targets and plenty do that, not to mention you are forgetting seal of command which accounts for significant threat in aoe situations.
Also rather funny to see you call cleave an aoe move, while saying palas are limited to 3 to 6 targets. Fyi cleave hits 2 targets, or 3 with a major glyph, and is fairly low threat and high cost- its one redeeming quality is that it is off the gcd.
The one thing warriors have on palas in the aoe department is shockwave, and that will NOT out-threat a pala over time, at least if the pala is using seal of command.
Ok side problem with this, its happened on several different pugs where the dps is so tired of my low mob pulling they will run out and pull several dozen other groups and pull them to me then bitch at me and the healer when they die, I always tell them they pulled they get to tank. worst example is in SM cath where a lock run straight down the middle of the cathedral it self throw curse of agony on the boss then run back to me. I let him die then pulled every thing off and because of my amazing healer (hugs Tearial) we clear it and leave the Instance lock unrezzed, those are the dps that I'm talking about
It's quite bothersome when your talking about dps in lowbie instances.
It's one thing when you're talking ICC raiders doing the daily heroic pulling the entire instance at once... when it's level appropriate players on new toons it's quite another.
The problem with lowbies though is that if it's someone's alt, they flat out have no patience for anything (sweeping generalization). Especially not if it's another player who's still trying to figure out their class or *gasp* new to the game hence the low level toon!
With thunderclap and damage shield (and shockwave if I can keep the mobs from trying to get behind me), I've had no problems tanking groups of trash. The biggest issue is rage-starving myself because I get cleave-happy.
its the worst when dps pulls while a we are still fight a group cause they've spoiled them selves on mains with tanks that could solo most of the pre-toc heroics thinking "oh nexus this is easy lets pull the whole room then hide behind the tank...X( dead fail healer fail tank, %^&* you, L2P etc etc
I try to ingore them but I can't help but interveane if aggro dump next to my healer or the other dps
I want to be a gnome shaman with mechanical chickens on sticks for totems
Groups of 2 or less I single target, 3 or more I Flame strike, flame strike blizzard (throw in some living bombs if I'm the only DPS worth a damn)
If the DPS pulls, they get to tank.
Whether the healer heals the or not is between the dps and the healer.
I'll stand back and dance, when the healer gains aggro, I'll jump in (unless the healer is a douche - then I let him die).
This is pretty rare though, since most of the time this pink haired gnome is already pulling the next group when the dps are finihsing off the first.
And lets be honest with ourselves, dps so outgear the regular dungeon heroics - that alot of the time they dont need a tank. Hell, I see plate DPS with health pools that I worked hard to get when I was doing naxx 10/25 after WoTLK first came out.
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