Prot Warriors in ICC

[ironsides]

Hi, recent events have pushed me into posting for advice. In ICC as time goes on I appear more and more squishy. I am a prot warrior and our other guild tank is a prot paladin. Both of us are way geared, however in tank deaths I die way more often than him. In fact it's to the point that I am looking like a bad tank, indeed I am sure its almost to the point my gm would like to recruit a 2nd pally and drop me. I'm not sure if I am missing something or what but the amounts of damage I take are unreal.

The fight mostly in question is normal mode Lich King. Although I am tanking adds, their enrage kills me often despite my efforts to keep them stunned when they enrage. However the biggest issue is dieing to the Lich King himself, we rotate tanks when 1 of us doesn't have a cooldown and nearly every time I taunt I end up dead either immediately or soon after. Now I would love to blame healers for not being ready for quick transitions, but the pally very rarely dies. I am now playing at my absolute best to avoid dieing, but it still doesn't ensure survivability, I am timing indestructible potions for key portions of the fight, same with cool downs and trinkets. I am literally doing my utmost to live.

What it boils down to, and what I am really asking is, are warriors really that bad at tanking now, or are our healers not used to the immense damage because our pally is so easy to heal, am I doing something way wrong with my gear/ spec? Any advice is appreciated, I don't have 4 piece so that could be helpful, but I don't really know what else I could be doing. As for pallies being ridiculously easy to heal and blaming the healers, it seems like druids are much less squishy than myself also. Once again any help is appreaciated. I am ironsides of Skullcrusher, orc warrior in the guild Anomaly. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...r&cn=Ironsides
Is my armory link, during the lich king fight I use the Indestructible organ in replace of the ToC heroic stam trinket since ghouls keep its stack at 10 for a large portion of the fight.

[Lieuluke]

From comparing (what i hope is) the pally tank you run with ( http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...her&cn=Feaross ) I'd say its because you're a mitigation tank, since you're going to be taking spikier damage than him. I have stats similar to that pally, and I'm doing fine so far in ICC.

[ironsides]

Thats not our pally =P, that paladin hasn't been playing in a while, our pally tank is MUCH better geared, http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...er&cn=Protocol

[tlhovis]

First and formost you have to keep one thing in mind, that pally with his holy shield up is blocking WAY more hits than you are, they just arent eating the damage we are as warriors, They also recive like 7-9% more healing than we do via talanes so the healers are landing better heals on them, They also have ardent defender that makes them like superhero status, im sure thye have atleast something else i completly forgot about thats helping them midigate way better than us. Prot War is in a sad state right now, regardless of people saying we are best single tarted threat, i see the other tank doing just as good, but as the end of the day all that threat does jack if we are laying on the floor

[ironsides]

Precisely, so how the heck do I compete, our pally is nearly unkillable, and in return I look useless, squishy, and a waste of gear. It makes it look like I have no idea what I'm doing despite the fact of regardless how perfect I play the encounter, I still stand a chance of getting gibbed. Do we need some kind of buff, is that what I'm getting from this, or are pallies just way 2 good and if this is true then why do some of our offspec feral druids appear less squishy than me also. I am in nearly all best in slot non-icc hard mode gear( which I will start obtaining next week), but whats the point of all this gear if I can't survive. Furthermore if pallies are way to good, if they got nerfed I feel my guild would have huge issues in icc, they can barely keep me alive, if they had 2 tanks taking as much damage as myself on fights like the Lich King I have no idea what we would do.

[MrMooky]

I've never fought the lich king so I could be mistaken, but it seems odd that you have stacked Defense gems out the wazoo. Your bracer enchant is +6 stats instead of 40 Stam? You're hit points display at 31k, which is super low. 2 +20 str gems in your shoulders? You should be good on threat, so why not gem survivability as that seems to be your problem. Your overall choice of gems and enchants seem wonky overall. I see fury is your higher rated gear spec, are you familiar with tanking, or just kinda got thrown into it?

[MellvarTank]

If what was said above is correct, you just don't have the health to be in ICC. The Lich King hits hard, rediculously so. You need stam to survive it.

[ironsides]

That is not my gear, that is my shield block set, it obviously isnt showing the gear I am currently wearing. I follower my link, I am logged out in current pve gear, which is mostly BiS or close to it as I said in my post. If you looked me up on WoW heroes and didn't search with (live) checked then thats why you are seeing my anub'arak shield block gear. I did not kill the lich king with 35k hp buffed...

[Joowa]

I see his health at 41k and all his gems outside of one are +30 stamina.

[Aggathon]

Alright, I don't usually post in threads like this, but I made the mistake of reading it all the way through and I'm really starting to nerdrage over it. I don't know why people are bashing warriors so hard, in fact, people have been saying that I'm one of the easiest to heal tanks, and I take either less damage than my pally counterpart or the same damage (or at least did before I quit, and I had done 25 man lich king, just didn't kill, but I still know the fight mechanics and how hard he hits).

I can't see your armory right now. Wowarmory is down and wow-heroes is showing you in your block gear, so I have no idea what your setup is like. However, there are quite a few things you can do.

First and foremost is the proper use of the ability shield block. This is by far one of the most powerful abilities warriors have, and it is what levels the playing field between us and paladins. You should be using it right when you taunt off the other tank so he can absorb the soul reaper. When shield block is up, I normally block for around ~4k and I can critical block for up to ~8k. Since Arthas hits for about 20k, 8k is equivalent to having glyphed shield wall up. Our ability (and pally's inability) to critical block is amazing, especially with shield block up. This is an excellent cooldown that can be used to ease the healing transition with the healers.

Secondly - the add's enrage. This enrage can be tranq shot (or anesthetic poisoned off). Therefore if you are dying to it, yes it helps to stun it, it gives the hunters or rogues more leeway in getting rid of it, but it really shouldn't be your fault if you die to it. That is 100% the dispeller's fault imo. When I tanked it our hunters were really on the ball and combined with stuns it was completely a non-issue.

Thirdly - gearing. Idk if you're talking about 10 man or 25 man because you haven't specified, but in 25 man, honestly for LK 41k HP unbuffed is probably a tad on the low side, especially if your armor is equally low. With badge gear it is really easy to get to about 44k unbuffed about about 35k armor. The key is enchants and rings. Armor rings are extremely valuable. The H-Band of the Twin Valks is by far one of the best EHP rings in the game right now until you get the armor ring from ICC25, and even then, I'd still use that ring and H-Band of the twin valks because it is better than the ashen verdict exalted ring, which imo is one of the few other rings worth its salt. If you're not using clutch of fortitude, you probably should.

240 armor to gloves, 225 armor to cloak are also vital enchants. If you are engineering or can go it, the 885 armor to glove enchant is amazing and well help out your armor levels a lot.

Get Pillars of Might crafted if you don't have them, and the badge chest.

Like I said, you may already be doing these things, but I can't see your armory right now so I have no idea. To me it honestly sounds like you aren't using shield block effectively and you are probably really low on armor, that + fight mechanics. I've been hit for 62k (while having almost 40k armor raid buffed) by an enraged add in 25 man. It's not meant to be survived, it's meant to be dispelled.

Shit in ICC hits hard, stack stam and armor so you can survive it.

And just kind of a post script here. STOP SAYING WARRIORS ARE BAD OR WORSE THAN PALLIES. They are not, it is a total fallacy and if you play your character right you can take the same or less damage than paladins.

[MellvarTank]

/pat Aggathon

It's okay Agg, some of us warriors still know better than to think the grass is greener on the other side.

[ironsides]

I thank you for your reply, I was not saying warriors arent as good, merely trying to understand my situation. I am not at 41k hp, I am not sure where people are getting these numbers from, I am at 47.7k unbuffed, I am not undergeared for the fight. I understand that the enrage can be dispelled, but I have to listen to healers cry about me being unhealable, and feral druids asking to tank because they think they take less damage. It is frustrating is all. I don't want you to think that I am putting warriors down or saying that they are no good, merely wanted to know if the problems I have been having have been at some critical mistake I have been making or just a combination of small mistakes from both myself and other raid members. Our pally just rarely dies and I am just as geared as him, it leaves me frustrated. I will try to utilize shield block a little better however and due to other threads I have read, theres seems to be a few tweaks I can make to my gear to give me better survivability with little threat loss, so with a little luck I will be much better off this next tuesday. Again thanks for your reply.

[Aggathon]

Okay, armory is back up, and I was right. Your armor is WAY low. By using some of the items you do, even though they have a lot of stam, you are actually sacrificing a lot of survivability (ex: juggernaught's band over clutch of fortitude or H-Band of the Valk'yrs). You really need to get your armor up. While you have well over 3k more hit points than I did before I quit (almost 4k) I had almost 8k more armor than you. That is a significant amount of EHP more, and a lot of damage reduction that will make your healers happy. You should really pick up the frost badge gear, even though you have ICC25 gear, the frost badge gear is significantly better. Pillars of Might, the Belt, Cataclysmic chestguard, gloves of the kraken, are all significant upgrades for you because of how much ridiculous armor they have on them. You should also enchant your cloak with 225 armor and put the +30stam/15 resil enchant on your shoulders.

Also my warrior bashing response was more focused at the people in the thread that responded to you, not your post.

[ironsides]

I have already done so, I am currently gemming and enchanting the belt, cloak, and chest. I am going to craft the leggings, however my tier gloves due to recent changes have the same armor as the badge ones do now, thus I will keep them as they are for 2 piece. Thanks for the help, im going to get the ring from sindragossa 25 asap and I will be good to go.

[Aggathon]

Actually the badge gloves got buffed too, so they actually still have more armor.

[tlhovis]

Okay, armory is back up, and I was right. Your armor is WAY low. By using some of the items you do, even though they have a lot of stam, you are actually sacrificing a lot of survivability (ex: juggernaught's band over clutch of fortitude or H-Band of the Valk'yrs). You really need to get your armor up. While you have well over 3k more hit points than I did before I quit (almost 4k) I had almost 8k more armor than you. That is a significant amount of EHP more, and a lot of damage reduction that will make your healers happy. You should really pick up the frost badge gear, even though you have ICC25 gear, the frost badge gear is significantly better. Pillars of Might, the Belt, Cataclysmic chestguard, gloves of the kraken, are all significant upgrades for you because of how much ridiculous armor they have on them. You should also enchant your cloak with 225 armor and put the +30stam/15 resil enchant on your shoulders.

Also my warrior bashing response was more focused at the people in the thread that responded to you, not your post.

If you were refering to my post, poitn out how i was warrior bashing? At no single point did i warrior bash, is tated facts about palladins and that it. My main is Prot warrior, i even stated that in my post. If you were not refering to my post than disregard.

[Aggathon]

If you were refering to my post, poitn out how i was warrior bashing? At no single point did i warrior bash, is tated facts about palladins and that it. My main is Prot warrior, i even stated that in my post. If you were not refering to my post than disregard.

They also have ardent defender that makes them like superhero status, im sure thye have atleast something else i completly forgot about thats helping them midigate way better than us. Prot War is in a sad state right now, regardless of people saying we are best single tarted threat, i see the other tank doing just as good, but as the end of the day all that threat does jack if we are laying on the floor

These are blatant lies and are not factual at all. Yes it is true that pallies block more than warriors so they are less likely to take a full hit, but they also block for a lot less since they cannot critical block and don't have any ability like shield block unless you count the low hp element of ardent defender.

[MellvarTank]

I have to side with Aggathon on this one. phrases like "superhero status" and "prot war is in a sad state right now" belong on the WoW Forums, not here. I am not going to point out the differences and turn this (otherwise) helpful thread into another Palli vs. Warrior thread... as those too belong on the official forums.

I would just recommend not phrasing statements like that in the future to avoid incurring Kaz's wrath.

[Aggathon]

ask your healer who is easier to heal, its not rocket science bud, pally handle damage better than us, period. And compared to. the other tanks, yea we are def in a sad state right now Now if youa re goign to bold something bold all of it and not a fragment ,
They also have ardent defender that makes them like superhero status yea , i consider the ability to die... but still live pretty superhero, so when us warriors are eating dirt and the raids being bent over that pally is still tanking.

They may not be able to critical block but there over all is way less spikey, they are at well over 100% block 100% of the time, ill give up critical block to have 100+% block 100% of the time

I have asked my healer who is easier to heal, and it was me. Not only was I easier to heal, but I can show you WoL parses where I took significantly less damage because of the way I geared and my usage of shield block. Further more, I would argue that last stand is better than (at least the death part) of ardent defender. Not only do we get the hit points for a longer time rather than just a heal, but if you use it proactively then it allows you to survive. Ardent Defender is really good, it's basically last stand and shield block's damage reduction rolled into one, but it hardly makes them superhero status, all it does is allow to mouth breathe while warriors actually have to know when to use cooldowns effectively.

How the hell are they well over 100% block? At most the have like 50%, and it's damned near impossible for them to get to 102.4% in ICC with CotT afaik. You can claim less spikey, but imo that just means you're not gearing correctly. Choosing armor pieces over raw stam pieces will even out your damage, and if you are taking spike damage, just hit a cooldown since you can control when to use it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, warriors are like manual transmissions when pallies are like automatic transmissions. This doesn't mean that manuals suck, it just means you have to think about when you're shifting gears and have the ability to be clutch (yuk yuk yuk, get it?).

I'm sorry sir, but I find it in my duty to call you out on this so that the many many people that read these forums don't continually fall into this fallacious argument and continue to put down or replace warriors instead of fixing raid problems or playstyle. Pallys are not better than warriors, they are on an even plane and warriors are not in a "sad state." I actually think they're right where they should be, maybe they do too much single target threat, but that's about it.

[Aggathon]

I have to side with Aggathon on this one. phrases like "superhero status" and "prot war is in a sad state right now" belong on the WoW Forums, not here. I am not going to point out the differences and turn this (otherwise) helpful thread into another Palli vs. Warrior thread... as those too belong on the official forums.

I would just recommend not phrasing statements like that in the future to avoid incurring Kaz's wrath.

Didn't see this before I posted, sorry for the double post, but ya. I'll probably end up being the one to incur kaz's wrath. I've already gotten enough threads locked as it is =P

/waits for ban hammer

Edit: ya he closed the thread, feel free to discuss it with me in private messages if you wish.
Edit2: and ironsides too, sorry for getting your thread closed, if you need any more advice feel free to PM me personally.