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Thread: PTR 3.3.3 - Death Knight - Tanks

  1. #61
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    @Proletaria You drop enough stam taking an armor trinket to cancel out the health benefit blood has relative to a frost dk using two stam trinkets. I am well aware of which slots can get bonus armor and how they stack, and a tank who uses the trinket slots for stam and who otherwise goes for an optimal stat balance (which is how I would advise a frost dk to gear in most situations) should be right in the neigbhorhood of 40K fully buffed in the best gear available... letting UBA push them to the cap when popped.

    As to the magic damage thing, yeah.. when UBA is at its worst.. acclimation is at its best. Go figure.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephelai View Post
    DK tanks are so good at the off tanking duties on LK comparitively,
    DK's are actually probably the worst LK OT's. Warriors are without a doubt the best (by a large, large, large factor). Not really sure where your statement would be coming from :\

  3. #63
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    Its coming from the fact that a DK can easily pick up shamblers with a death grip creating zero chance of the raid ever being in the frontal cone, they can produce better aoe threat and get better aoe snap aggro then a warrior, they can slow valks before they are in melee range, which a warrior can not do, they can generally handle the spirits as well as anyone else can.

    Only thing they can't do is stun during add enrage, so they do need a tranq shot for that, but I would rather need a tranq shot on enrage then need an md on spawn.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephelai View Post
    Its coming from the fact that a DK can easily pick up shamblers with a death grip creating zero chance of the raid ever being in the frontal cone, they can produce better aoe threat and get better aoe snap aggro then a warrior, they can slow valks before they are in melee range, which a warrior can not do, they can generally handle the spirits as well as anyone else can.

    Only thing they can't do is stun during add enrage, so they do need a tranq shot for that, but I would rather need a tranq shot on enrage then need an md on spawn.
    If you figure out how shamblers spawn there is never a chance of frontal cone regardless. You don't need AOE threat on LK at all? You definitely don't need AOE snap agro. You DO need single target snap agro, which warriors provide more readily than DKs, along with a build in sunder, demo shout, and unique HP buff. Valkyrs will always have slow on them, virtually every class can slow the Valkyrs to their maximum slow level, warriors have the unique ability of being able to AoE stun and single target stun virtually every Valkyr phase.
    Most importantly, warriors can Safeguard the MT during Soul Reaper transitions on cooldown.

    I have no idea why you think DK's would handle Vile Spirits better than anyone else. You run into them. I guess AMS could be considered a small advantage, but 40-0% is pretty trivial regardless.

  5. #65
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    @edgewalker lol.. wonder if you have been studying the same fight... it seems to help with the disease spreading if the ghouls are actually within 5 yards of the shambler.. and that involves both aoe snap agro, and aoe tanking, unless of course you have the raid aggro the ghouls and stack on the shambler, which is fail for a plethora of reasons. Fan/Tricks from a rogue helps, but its pretty damn nice to have HB and diseases to keep them all nice and close. Because there should be no dps on the aoe pack, the actual threat generated over time isn't as important as a good snap, but it is particularly helpful none the less if the the LK tank is something like a palladin, as they can't help but create alot of their own aoe threat.

    I didn't say DK's could handle Vile Spirits better then anyone else. I simply said "as well as anyone else can" which I think holds its own.

    You over exaggerated the number of classes that are viable.. and can slow the valkyries, while kind of neglecting to mention that there are alot of ways to stun them in most raid comps.

    Edit: oh yeah, and there are a rediculous number of combinations for any main tank/healer comp that will ensure that a cd is available every 30 seconds.
    Last edited by Nephelai; 02-22-2010 at 05:12 PM.

  6. #66
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    It's possible guilds use different strategies for the encounter.

    @Neph:
    You haven't killed half the bosses in ICC let alone to say what's 'right' or 'wrong' for encounters. Some guilds just have shamblers tanked off to a side and they taunt adds 1 by 1 off the MT/LK tank. Edge was also pointing out in the grand scheme of things in a 25 man raid environment you wouldn't depend on just chillbains for slowing val'kyr's. Don't nit-pick something like that.
    Havx | <Tasty Beverage> | US Alliance | Bleeding Hollow
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephelai View Post
    @edgewalker lol.. wonder if you have been studying the same fight... it seems to help with the disease spreading if the ghouls are actually within 5 yards of the shambler.. and that involves both aoe snap agro, and aoe tanking, unless of course you have the raid aggro the ghouls and stack on the shambler, which is fail for a plethora of reasons. Fan/Tricks from a rogue helps, but its pretty damn nice to have HB and diseases to keep them all nice and close. Because there should be no dps on the aoe pack, the actual threat generated over time isn't as important as a good snap, but it is particularly helpful none the less if the the LK tank is something like a palladin, as they can't help but create alot of their own aoe threat.

    I didn't say DK's could handle Vile Spirits better then anyone else. I simply said "as well as anyone else can" which I think holds its own.

    You over exaggerated the number of classes that are viable.. and can slow the valkyries, while kind of neglecting to mention that there are alot of ways to stun them in most raid comps.

    Edit: oh yeah, and there are a rediculous number of combinations for any main tank/healer comp that will ensure that a cd is available every 30 seconds.
    No I haven't been "studying" it, I've been killing it.
    The Drudge Ghoul disease build is actually more complex than it needs to be for normal mode LK, it's only something you need to do for heroic shambler HP.
    No... there are an extremely large number of classes that can slow the Valkyrs in any given raid setup. DK's (All 3 specs, 2 with talents, 1 with a glyph), Warriors, Rogues, Shaman, Mages, Priests, Warlocks even... there are very few that can consistently stun and debuff them at no loss to DPS like having an OT warrior could.
    There are a RIDICULOUS number of ways that your conceived cooldown rotation can go wrong with a death or valkyr carry also. Having a warrior OT is a permanent, low CD cooldown that you can always use (you can't exactly have an OT die).
    This is going to sound pretty elitist too, but I have no idea why someone who hasn't killed past Gunship on 25 man would be arguing raid composition on 25 man Lich Kiing with me either? We 2 shot the 10 man version using a warrior OT as well... which becomes drastically more effective given the smaller number of classes providing the warriors overall utility.

  8. #68
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    @ Havix - I see you just got the Corroded Key too. I've found it a lot more useful than I thought it would be.
    And Gargoyle Split heroic bracers... which makes me hate you. Never seen even the normal modes drop, and the first time I clear the zone on my alt paladin I see the heroic versions.

  9. #69
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    Back to the topic at hand, I seem to be getting more agro on the PTR by spamming IT than doing anything else with those frost runes.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    No I haven't been "studying" it, I've been killing it.
    This is going to sound pretty elitist too, but I have no idea why someone who hasn't killed past Gunship on 25 man would be arguing raid composition on 25 man Lich Kiing with me either?
    Wow, it not only sounds elitist, but its carelessly inaccurate considering the fact that I clearly have 25m BQL (guilds first kill, server second) and 25m Dreamwalker kills on the only one of my toons you could possibly know about(granted it is my favorite one). A toon that happened to have changed guilds about a month ago, and since then has been patiently sitting in on raids while the guild veterans do the farming on tuesday, only to be pulled in later in the week to grind the progression wipes, when said veterans don't all show up.

    It dosen't really matter, because I lurk enough in enough different forums to know that you tend to incite this kind of back and forth often from players of all experience levels.

    @vah Edge has an extremely polarizing way of wording things that gets me going.
    Last edited by Nephelai; 02-22-2010 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephelai View Post
    It dosen't really matter, because I lurk enough in enough different forums to know that you tend to incite this kind of back and forth often from players of all experience levels.
    .
    All I ever ask for is a measure of experience when citing fight mechanics (people that try to explain them because they read a strategy or saw a video are ridiculous), a measure of real world experience (in the same vein, people that theorycraft without playing the game are ridiculous as well), and a measure of reality. Congratulations on your kills, but a BQL/VD kill doesn't really address the main purpose of my post. Why argue mechanics on a fight you haven't experienced?
    I never try to be polarizing, but I do try to be truthful. It sucks if you are a frost DK right now. You have a worse / reverse scaling 1 minute cooldown, a non-healing main strike, you are losing a little bit of your defining edge because of the Icy Touch snap threat buff, you have a worse health pool (which doesn't mean everything, but is a measuring stick used by a lot of players), and you have a pretty large negative stigma in the tanking circle. I understand that it's frustrating wanting to raid as a frost DK while people like me constantly bash on the spec, tout Blood, don't give Frost it's due. I can appreciate and respect that.
    However, this is a tanking forum. People that come here often want the absolutes on tanking. They want the best spec for each fight, they want the best gear for each fight, they want the best talents for each fight. They want everything broken down into nice little packages. While you CAN find some exceptions to what I am about to say, they are so few and far between, and overall irrelevant, it's better to leave them in the air and let the masses run away with the easy (And generally best) way to do things.

    IF you are a raiding DK tank and you want to be the most beneficial to your raid (easiest to keep alive) with the best cooldowns... Go Blood. Stack Stamina. Pick up the new WoTN. Prosper.

    You can still be your own player. You can still raid frost. Hell, you can raid Unholy if you want. No one's stopping you, and I'm not saying you are a "noob" or bad if you do. I am simply stating that Blood IS better overall. This change only cements that further. I have no idea why that's so offensive to some people here.

  12. #72
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    Well, I can tell you why people are having issues with your comments. You state things matter of fact and your tone is very cold overall. I'm sure you're a nice guy and everything and you probably know what you're talking about, but people are going to close up like a mouse trap when you come across like that. At the end of your post you basically are telling people they take offense easily. Even if they do, they don't want to hear it and your opinions will get less and less merit because people wont care about your opinion.

    Anyways, back to my problems. I was just on the PTR and I tanked a 5 man as frost. On a single target I would use two icy touches, two plague strikes then after the runes reset, 4 icy touches and 2 plague strikes. At this point I would be well over 10k tps. I couldn't get anywhere near this with an obliterate rotation. So rimes basically worthless on a single target if I tank like that.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaediyen View Post
    Well, I can tell you why people are having issues with your comments. You state things matter of fact and your tone is very cold overall. I'm sure you're a nice guy and everything and you probably know what you're talking about, but people are going to close up like a mouse trap when you come across like that. At the end of your post you basically are telling people they take offense easily. Even if they do, they don't want to hear it and your opinions will get less and less merit because people wont care about your opinion.

    Anyways, back to my problems. I was just on the PTR and I tanked a 5 man as frost. On a single target I would use two icy touches, two plague strikes then after the runes reset, 4 icy touches and 2 plague strikes. At this point I would be well over 10k tps. I couldn't get anywhere near this with an obliterate rotation. So rimes basically worthless on a single target if I tank like that.
    That actually is extremely interesting, and a consequence that I am not particularly crazy about. All of the above got started when I was trying to point out that there is an extremely good way to open a boss fight as frost with a normal single target two disease opener, but then somehow that discussion got extremely derailed. The point I had been trying to make back then is that otherwise good opener has long had one flaw when compared to an HB opener, and that one flaw is the snap aggro provided by IT. From that perspective the change seemed good.

    Of course what you have pointed out is interesting and a bit vexing really. I rather like that kind of dps that can be done with a "proper" prioritization system using rime and km procs effectively, and believe that even though dps isn't the tanks fundamental concern, that it contributes to the raid none the less. I am not really crazy with the idea that this system could be replaced with a rotation that sacrifices a large amount of damage for a substandard damage rotation packed with a novelty use of the IT threat multiplier.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    All I ever ask for is a measure of experience when citing fight mechanics (people that try to explain them because they read a strategy or saw a video are ridiculous), a measure of real world experience (in the same vein, people that theorycraft without playing the game are ridiculous as well), and a measure of reality. Congratulations on your kills, but a BQL/VD kill doesn't really address the main purpose of my post. Why argue mechanics on a fight you haven't experienced?
    I made the comments about LK because... I have off tanked phase one on 10m through a number of attempts and know that what I said about the ease of handling the shamblers and ghouls as a frost dk is sound, because it was extremely easy for me to do. I know that the 25 man timers and mechanic difference for this are not different enough to have any relevancy to what I was saying, because I know what they are from studying the fight.

    Phase 2 certainly needs more then chill blains to safely slow the valks in 25 man, chill blains can certainly be sufficient in 10 with maybe one redundant assignment just in case. I know this because I have experienced 10m Phase 2 (our pally tank provided the stun, while tanking the LK at the same time).

    My raid comp had a bit of a problem with the fact that DBM didn't tell them who was being targeted with defile, so I haven't experienced phase 3, but I don't see anything about those spirits that particularly favors one class over another, maybe I will discover I am mistaken.

    Now, unless this fight is exceedingly different then every single thing i have experienced since naxx, I know that experiencing the 10 man version qualifies as "some measure" of experience that is applicable to the 25m as well.

    Edit: Will not respond further to this particular line of discussion unless it is moved to a new thread entitled "are you experienced, have you ever been experienced"
    Last edited by Nephelai; 02-23-2010 at 03:24 AM.

  15. #75
    Can I suggest that someone gives Neph and Edge a room to let it all out in? Like their own thread or so? :P
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaediyen View Post
    Well, I can tell you why people are having issues with your comments. You state things matter of fact and your tone is very cold overall. I'm sure you're a nice guy and everything and you probably know what you're talking about, but people are going to close up like a mouse trap when you come across like that. At the end of your post you basically are telling people they take offense easily. Even if they do, they don't want to hear it and your opinions will get less and less merit because people wont care about your opinion.

    Anyways, back to my problems. I was just on the PTR and I tanked a 5 man as frost. On a single target I would use two icy touches, two plague strikes then after the runes reset, 4 icy touches and 2 plague strikes. At this point I would be well over 10k tps. I couldn't get anywhere near this with an obliterate rotation. So rimes basically worthless on a single target if I tank like that.
    If that is aimed at my initial posts, I would very much like you to go over them again and outline exactly where you think there is such kind of problems. (until the point where I Exploded at a person waiving the "your not hardcore so these things should not concern you" or whatever flag... not even knowing where I stand on raiding)...

    The initial posts contains wordings as "if you ask me", "in my opinion", "personally", "seem to", "Not sure for this"... If those have misguided anyone to belief I was stating anything out from facts, then I Apologise... But are those terms really that hard to understand?... The upper part of the post is all stated as "facts", well it is all copied directly from the PTR patch notes, so if that contains to harsh wording please tell blizzard and not me.

    I Do state some along the way... I would like to pick up on some of them...
    - "Adding it to Frost Fever as i point out wouldn't only be a Single Target Threat boost, bot an AoE one as well, and that is surely not needed." : The first part is evidently true, if FF got a threat boost our AoE tanking would be improved, I doubt anyone would argue against that. Second part where I say it is surely not needed, ok fair enough correction "I doubt very much that is needed"... none seems to have argued against that however.

    - "for slimes currently HB > IT for obvious reasons" : can't see why this shouldn't be true, but ok... I do apologize for not stating is as my conclusion instead of a general one.

    If not please remember Quotes
    _____________________________________________

    Besides that, as for the whole Blood vs. Frost fight, fair enough... I fail to understand the dearly blood tanks point of view on all should be blood for end game because that is "simply the best DK tank spec"... why are you people even tanking?... Shouldn't you all go DPS because As far as I know there is better tank classes than us, like in the good old days?

    NOTE: I'm not stating in the above that Blood is the best tanking spec, that is taking out from what so many seems to state and use as an argument for blood... I won't get into that fight any more...

    Anyways, forget that because I was never here to debate those things, I was here to debate the changes and how they affect different spec's, what might be good, what might be bad, what might be overlooked.

    My hope for the Death Knight class is not that we have Blood as the dominant spec that all has to use for tanking in PvE, but that any Death Knight can choose to tank as Frost, Unholy or Blood according to his personal preference, what he think is cool, what he think is fun.

    I don't really see the major difference in survival of the to current major spec's, and I do belief it is truly sad that Unholy as a tanking spec seems so dead as I experience it when looking at forums, Frost seems to have a good representation in discussions as well as blood, but can't remember when I last saw a discussion about Unholy as a tanking spec, Indicating that it may be closet to not used...
    Last edited by dotJEM; 02-23-2010 at 05:45 AM.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaediyen View Post
    Even if they do, they don't want to hear it and your opinions will get less and less merit because people wont care about your opinion.

    Anyways, back to my problems. I was just on the PTR and I tanked a 5 man as frost. On a single target I would use two icy touches, two plague strikes then after the runes reset, 4 icy touches and 2 plague strikes. At this point I would be well over 10k tps. I couldn't get anywhere near this with an obliterate rotation. So rimes basically worthless on a single target if I tank like that.
    I don't think it will be that much of an issue, Threat past the opening sequence is such a trivial thing most of the time you lose DPS at virtually no gain.

  18. #78
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    Blood has been the premier tanking spec since the 3.1 unholy nerfs and will continue to be so well into the future.

    DK's are no longer used (might be after 3.3.3, but not now) as tanks on LK progression (see fixed bug and disease spreading post) as there are other and better ways to snare valks and handle spirits. Bears/paladins/warriors simply bring much more to the encounter and raid.

    Bottom line: I'm not sure how much of this is just inexperience (non-Kingslayers) on the Lich King encounter or how out of touch people have become with this class in general, but i'm totally confused by the amount of bad information here.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    DK's are no longer used (might be after 3.3.3, but not now) as tanks on LK progression (see fixed bug and disease spreading post) as there are other and better ways to snare valks and handle spirits. Bears/paladins/warriors simply bring much more to the encounter and raid.

    Bottom line: I'm not sure how much of this is just inexperience (non-Kingslayers) on the Lich King encounter or how out of touch people have become with this class in general, but i'm totally confused by the amount of bad information here.


    I don't really buy that statement. Just looking at the top 5 kills of 25 man LK at world of logs, at least 2 of them use DK's as tanks. I would agree they are used less, but not at all is really stretching it. It is probably better to cut the hyperbole/misinformation down some in favor of facts. There are may be better ways to tank certain things, but that doesn't make DK's limp in the encounter.

    On Topic: The buffs DK's got were very nice. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the WotN buff plays out, but I know our main DK tank is definitely excited.
    Last edited by jere; 02-23-2010 at 09:56 AM.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    On Topic: The buffs DK's got were very nice. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the WotN buff plays out, but I know our main DK tank is definitely excited.
    I'm very excited myself, as I function as a Frost tank to provide Imp Icy Talons (Windfury) to the raidgroup. With both a possible recruit/replacement for that buff and the DK changes, I'm looking forward to PTR testing some of the Blood/Unholy (dps) changes. Only issue that Frost does dominate heroic/trash content, which makes me pause as I do enjoy having solid control during heroic dailies for guildmates.

    I have noticed a number of "WotN will be OP" comments, but I found out last night that AD is actually very similar now. The major differences are AD's GS aspect and that AD functions at 20%, rather than WotN's 15%. Was AD changed at some point and I missed the note? It does lend credence to WotN 3.3.3 going live as it is on PTR if AD is already performing the same 'full' reductions on hits that cross the 35% threshold as that implies WotN will be comparatively balanced to a talent already in game.

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