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Thread: PTR 3.3.3 - Death Knight - Tanks

  1. #41
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    BQL Hard - Melee Average 20,019 Max 29,987
    Festergut Normal - Average Melee - 17,509, Max 28,078
    Festergut Hard - Average Melee - 22,530 Max 44,089
    LK - Soul Reaper Max Taken 38,098 (Avg 30,109) Melee Max 44,000 (Avg 17,411)
    DBS Hard - Melee Average - 20,109 Max 34,109
    ROTFACE (Not a hard hitting tank fight) Average 14,058 Max 27,098

    I don't have LK Hard mode or Sindragosa Hard mode parses, but they are the HARDEST hitting bosses currently in the game, so the numbers will be higher. Most of those bosses have supplemental damage effects, instant attacks, raid damage, or attack extremely fast (Saurfang HM for instance, especially below 30%, is an extremely hard hitting tank killer boss).

    I honestly don't care what you go. Frost is playable. Unholy is still playable. Frost does have some nice passive mitigation talents. But to argue, or even attempt to argue, that WoTN doesn't take an already slightly more powerful tree and leapfrog it FAR above the other two is laughable. Arguing 2% passive mitigation over 15% on any fight where you have a chance of dying is even more ludicrous.
    You are basically saying "That talent is only good if it's on a boss where I am getting hit hard".... duh?

  2. #42
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    Short term TPS screenshots off the opener are ridiculous also. You would be listed as doing 20K+ TPS even if you were in Blood Presence with your back turned to the boss, AFK eating cereal. It has nothing to do with spec or class or playstyle and everything to do with Blizzard's current design philosophies.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    Ignorance and Arrogance....
    You went on a totally unneeded rant and then bashed his progression as not having a life?
    Keep yourself in check.
    Frost HAS snap threat. Frost will have even more snap threat in EVERY situation where you would need the buffed IT. People that don't like this change because they play frost either don't understand its intentions, don't understand the mechanics or reasoning behind the change, or are just looking for something to complain about.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I honestly don't care what you go. Frost is playable. Unholy is still playable. Frost does have some nice passive mitigation talents. But to argue, or even attempt to argue, that WoTN doesn't take an already slightly more powerful tree and leapfrog it FAR above the other two is laughable. Arguing 2% passive mitigation over 15% on any fight where you have a chance of dying is even more ludicrous.
    You are basically saying "That talent is only good if it's on a boss where I am getting hit hard".... duh?
    First of all, my arguments in favor of frost tanking are not made because blood tanking is "bad." It's because frost tanks constantly have to defend themselves against random heroic pugs and others who have succumbed to the illusion of more health in the blood tank spec, without really looking at the mechanics behind the two trees. The number of issues that need to be covered in those arguments, and even in the damage numbers you posted, are sundry. For example, when Festergut is hitting his hardest, IBF and UB give me 38 seconds of strait damage reduction without the need to call for pain suppression. And yes, even UB is very solid damage reduction against Festerguts physical melee attacks, which happen to be worse when there is no shadow raid damage to go with them.

    But what I am arguing, isn't that blood tanking is bad, that would be silly. It's not bad, it just has a boring rotation. My argument is exactly that a) it is not slightly superior and b) the fix on one of its worse talents is going to help it, but not propel it way above anything.

    lol.. an oh yeah.. as to the SS, keep in mind I only posted them in reply to someone saying they had never seen short term tps numbers over 16K. Stop trying to evaluate them in a vacume that dosen't include that statement.

    Edit: I could have been a real ass and posted SS of me chain taunting off three army of the dead casts in a heroic.. those TPS numbers are extremely funny.

    Edit Edit: Oh, heh.. and unless Saurfang has eaten some serious wheaties in hard mode, tank killing is the least of a raids concerns with him, even after frenzy. After all, on normal, getting a random mark on the tank is not only healable, its advantageous.
    Last edited by Nephelai; 02-21-2010 at 11:03 PM.

  5. #45
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    Well I know why I tank in blood spec, and it's got nothing to do with the "boring" 14 shot starting rotation.. which I actually find mildly annoying because it can be tight.
    Here's my reasons and theyre all to do with survivabilty.. since thats the main job of a tank.

    UH Tank
    IBF - check
    Bone Shield - check

    Frost Tank
    IBF - check
    Frigid Dreadplate - err.. ok >.>
    Unbreakable Armor - Check

    Blood Tank
    IBF - check
    Spell Deflection - check (laugh all you want until you check your logs after princes)
    VB - check
    WoTN - check
    More health - check

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
    Well I know why I tank in blood spec, and it's got nothing to do with the "boring" 14 shot starting rotation.. which I actually find mildly annoying because it can be tight.
    Here's my reasons and theyre all to do with survivabilty.. since thats the main job of a tank.

    UH Tank
    IBF - check
    Bone Shield - check

    Frost Tank
    IBF - check
    Frigid Dreadplate - err.. ok >.>
    Unbreakable Armor - Check

    Blood Tank
    IBF - check
    Spell Deflection - check (laugh all you want until you check your logs after princes)
    VB - check
    WoTN - check
    More health - check
    Come on now, I was having a fun little back and forth with Edgewalker, but his posts are at least not so narrowly biased as to completely ignore things.

    You laughed off Frigid Deadplate.. but most of us realize that 3percent avoidance, is 3 percent avoidance, and certainly not to be scoffed.

    You completely ignore Improved Frost presence even though, assuming a 50K hit, it would be 1000 mitigation, while listing "more health" under blood... er uh... 1 percent more stam per point, right?

    You mention spell deflection while ignoring acclimation. Really now, the 30 percent chance of having an extra 50 resistance to one hit is higher odds then your parry chance... and it just might even stack.

    You made no mention of the fact that frosts IBF lasts quite a bit longer then bloods (6 more seconds is an eternity in the world of cd's)

    And heres a little frost tank secret.. since after the start of a fight we are usually boasting a nice fat threat lead, we can allways break our prioritization to do atypical sub optimal threat stuff, when needed... like when our healer is cc'd, or out of los behind an iceblock, or otherwise not able to get that next couple heals off... we do have DS on our toolbar, and some of us actually do know how to use it. Granted, we get a 10percent heal instead of a 15percent heal.. but then we specialize in creating FU pairs.. so...

    You kinda left a few things out of unholy too, like better magic damage survival tools then either of us have, but even people who like to use UH know that it is lagging behind the other two trees in a number of respects.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    20-24k tps... that made me think that your exadurating... highest TPS Ive ever seen on a tank for a short period lies around 16k. regardless of class and situation...
    So unless you have a stupid high amount of rouges and hunters in the raid i find those numbers hard to belive... we normally run wit 2 of each in 25 man max.
    Not going for epeen here, as it was pointed out below, burst threat can go quite high. I have my meter set to a 10 sec sliding window (i.e. at any give time the TPS shown is averaged over the last 10 sec it has recorded) and I've managed to sustain 38k tps for 8-10 sec on DBS (i.e. no special threat buffs other than fast swings). That of course caused a fit of rampant giggling as I happened to be watching the meter out of curiosity at the time.

    All it takes to get a spree like that is a lucky set of RS procs, and some HS crits. I had no rogues or hunters (/lament awkward comp sometimes).


    Anyway, back to the issue at hand. We've had a lot of hand-waving "it is going to be RIDICULOUS!!" "It's no biggeee"

    Let's look at the range of potential value for the ability.

    With no ICD and no minimum size requirement it can proc on every hit, right? So, *if* every hit you take takes you from >35% to <35% (which logistically is unlikely as it will require you to be low enough for the smaller hits to do that, and/or to be hanging out at lower health, *or* be getting hit for 50-70+% of your health on every hit) then it will be a 15% mitigation effect. But let's look closer:

    I expect I skew a bit on the light side for health as a Blood tank as only half of my gems are actually pure stamina (WTB more blue sockets). Raid buffed I am sitting at about 55k health. So, the proc threshold for WotN for me is 19.25k. Pretty decently high point to cross yes? If I have full health that means I need to take a 36k+ hit to drop me below that point from full (and if I am getting hit that hard my healers are hammering heals to keep me pressed towards the ceiling, Festergut on inhale 3 with no CDs popped hits me for about 30k). Generally speaking though, I have a low health warning set at 40% (makes a nice hard-to-miss sound when I cross that value) and I rarely cross it when things are going right *except* for the tank hammering fights like Fester, Sindragosa, and painful LK moments.

    So, *if* we meet the criteria for tank hammering with the perfect (and terrifying) possibility of every hit taking you from above 35% to below, *then* it is a full 15% added mitigation, mitigation which Blood is otherwise lacking from talents, but your healers are going to be working their butts off to keep you alive, and you will likely be popping CDs to keep from getting hit *that* hard.

    Realistically? What can we expect. If you have a fight where you are expected to get busted on (particularly the ones above), you can reasonably probably expect to dip that low from one hit every 3-5 sec. Let's say 4 just to have a number. And we'll say the hit that dropped you that low was a WHOPPING 30k slam. 15% off that slam is 4500 dmg reduced. If we are taking uniform hits every 1.3 sec (fast swing) so every 3rd is dipping us, that is 15% on 1/3rd of the hits, or a 5% mitigation bump for a 3 pt talent. Slightly over the standard budget, but generally appropriate for the very conditional nature.

    If we swung that up to the biggest hit you would likely see around 45k that would be 6.75k reduced, but those would not be so frequent so that raw damage removed would be less, though maybe it would increase the overall % mitigation. Keep in mind you can *never* get above 15% damage reduction from the talent.


    I maintain that this makes the talent *very* desirable, but not at all game breaking. Generally speaking this just cements the talents nature as a "you don't want to see it proc, but when it does you will be thrilled it did as it *could* save your life."



    Personally, if these changes go through they will change my considerations a bit of two key items:
    1.) Glyph of Disease. If IT is doing significantly more threat, I may want to be using it more than once per fight. GoDisease has many perks that have little to do with raw threat though, so it is not a cut and dry change.

    2.) WotN. I never really took it before because I didn't particularly care for the overall effect, my health rarely dips that low repeatedly unless I'm about to die for lack of healers (usually poor things are dead), and because I have my own response to health dips involving sharp DS/Rune Tap heals to bounce back up which tends to limit the procs even more. That said, with the righteous beating I sometimes take in ICC, it may be well worth a trade from some of my threat focus to grab, just to make it a little easier on my healers when it really matters.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephelai View Post
    First of all, my arguments in favor of frost tanking are not made because blood tanking is "bad." It's because frost tanks constantly have to defend themselves against random heroic pugs and others who have succumbed to the illusion of more health in the blood tank spec, without really looking at the mechanics behind the two trees. The number of issues that need to be covered in those arguments, and even in the damage numbers you posted, are sundry. For example, when Festergut is hitting his hardest, IBF and UB give me 38 seconds of strait damage reduction without the need to call for pain suppression. And yes, even UB is very solid damage reduction against Festerguts physical melee attacks, which happen to be worse when there is no shadow raid damage to go with them.

    But what I am arguing, isn't that blood tanking is bad, that would be silly. It's not bad, it just has a boring rotation. My argument is exactly that a) it is not slightly superior and b) the fix on one of its worse talents is going to help it, but not propel it way above anything.

    Are you aware that DK tanks are 1-2% damage reduction under the armor cap in correctly itemized gear when using Indestructible pots? This would make UA practically useless. If you expect to survive hard mode festergut with just UA, you won't be killing him for awhile. I agree the 6 extra seconds on IBF is very nice for situations such as this though.

    Then again, you can go blood, use IBF for 12, VB/trinkets for 15 to put you at 70-75k health + 35% increased healing followed up with a GS/Painsup/Hand of Sac just to be safe, meanwhile spamming death strike to heal yourself for 10-15k during this duration.

    Like i said previously in my 'arrogant' post, please find a Frost Dk Main tank in a top 200 world guild as maybe they can teach the rest of us something we don't know? (This post is specifically referring to end-game raiding, please do not refer to tanking heroics)
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  9. #49
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    I'm not in the habit of agreeing with Edgewalker, but I think he's looking at this the right way here.

    This isn't about how much damage this talent reduces on average over the course of a raid instance. This is all about what raid encounter mechanics you can make significantly easier to handle by having or not having WotN (or AD). If your raid strat for handling soul reaper reads "have a blood DK or paladin", then you know something isn't quite right. If every hard mode strat reads "this fight is easier with a Blood DK or Paladin tank", it's certainly gone wrong. If this is all blown out of proportion and it just makes the tank classes a little bit different to play, then it's all fine.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vah View Post

    Like i said previously in my 'arrogant' post, please find a Frost Dk Main tank in a top 200 world guild as maybe they can teach the rest of us something we don't know? (This post is specifically referring to end-game raiding, please do not refer to tanking heroics)
    Unfortunately, you probably won't find one. I love Frost Spec, it's what I started tanking in when trade chat "wisdom" was that "Frost was the tanking spec;" however, as content hit harder I respec'd to Blood for boss fights, but kept Frost for adds, heroics and trash - also, melee dps just doesn't get me going. It seems the changes to WoTN, will just extend Blood's lead as the tanking spec for end-game boss fights.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephelai View Post
    First of all, my arguments in favor of frost tanking are not made because blood tanking is "bad." It's because frost tanks constantly have to defend themselves against random heroic pugs and others who have succumbed to the illusion of more health in the blood tank spec, without really looking at the mechanics behind the two trees. The number of issues that need to be covered in those arguments, and even in the damage numbers you posted, are sundry. For example, when Festergut is hitting his hardest, IBF and UB give me 38 seconds of strait damage reduction without the need to call for pain suppression. And yes, even UB is very solid damage reduction against Festerguts physical melee attacks, which happen to be worse when there is no shadow raid damage to go with them.

    Edit Edit: Oh, heh.. and unless Saurfang has eaten some serious wheaties in hard mode, tank killing is the least of a raids concerns with him, even after frenzy. After all, on normal, getting a random mark on the tank is not only healable, its advantageous.
    Well random heroics and pugs are made up of idiots and fools, everyone should know that by now

    UA has a LOT of issues as your gear improves. Even if you aren't stacking armor, you will still be using Indestructible on pulls, and when bosses hit hard. You will still likely be wearing Devium's Ring when you get it, Bile-Encrusted Medallion, the tier chest and gloves. Even a DK NOT gearing for armor will be getting very, very close to the armor cap. The harder the content and the better your gear get, the worse UA gets as a mitigation talent. On heroic 25 man Festergut, even heroic 10 man Festergut, it becomes a simply worse overall talent than WoTN when compared side to side, and definitely worse than VB which flat scales (and also scales the effectiveness of WoTN on use).

    Acclimation has a lot of issues when compared to Spell Deflection. The larger spell damage bosses in the game don't have AoE abilities or constant magical damage that stack Acclimation. I've specced it and frost for Sindragosa and gone the entire fight without seeing a stack above 1.

    Saurfang hits for about 30-32K damage every .8 seconds on heroic 25 man, with a slight discrepancy on swing time based on his casting of abilities and damage based on his current rune power.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Realistically? What can we expect. If you have a fight where you are expected to get busted on (particularly the ones above), you can reasonably probably expect to dip that low from one hit every 3-5 sec. Let's say 4 just to have a number. And we'll say the hit that dropped you that low was a WHOPPING 30k slam. 15% off that slam is 4500 dmg reduced. If we are taking uniform hits every 1.3 sec (fast swing) so every 3rd is dipping us, that is 15% on 1/3rd of the hits, or a 5% mitigation bump for a 3 pt talent. Slightly over the standard budget, but generally appropriate for the very conditional nature.
    .
    You really need to stop looking at survival talents on the basis of how much damage they reduce over a period of time It really misses the point entirely.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vah View Post

    Like i said previously in my 'arrogant' post, please find a Frost Dk Main tank in a top 200 world guild as maybe they can teach the rest of us something we don't know? (This post is specifically referring to end-game raiding, please do not refer to tanking heroics)
    Devium used to be, but he also generally specced and geared like a fresh 80 with no regard to how the game works, so I suspect that isn't a valid point

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Devium used to be, but he also generally specced and geared like a fresh 80 with no regard to how the game works, so I suspect that isn't a valid point
    His point is/was pretty valid. I haven't seen a non-blood dk tanking in -any- guild that was within in the top 1000, much less top 200. My guild is on a server rife with progression raiders, the largest population of raiders in the US. I am quite literally THE ONLY dk tank who has killed the lich king on 10 or 25. The only dk tank who has tanked BQL 25. The only dk tank who has tanked Sindragosa 25. I'm very familiar with the other tank deathknights on my battlegroup because there aren't many of us. We are all blood simply because it is better, in almost every way, in almost every situation, than frost. Devium also hasn't tanked anything in a long time, and indeed spec's like he just mashed the keyboard at random.

    Back to the topic of WOTN. Satorri has it right. The OMG OVERPOWERED wotn only becomes so when bosses are hitting VERY hard (and since they hit that hard, they're either hitting slow, or they're hard-enraged and the raid is wiping). Most of the hardmodes don't even cross into the 40k "wow look at that talent go" threshold, and, unless your healers are comfortable letting you ride at 45% hp then you won't be taking advantage of wotn on bosses who hit faster for much less damage (ie. every non-festergut, non-lichking encounter in icc). Describing it as a "free 15% mitigation" or "free 15% EH" is just completely ignorant. We'll see just how broken it is when the patch is live, but I suspect the "zomg 15% eh" posts are going to have this nerfed before it sees the light of day.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    You really need to stop looking at survival talents on the basis of how much damage they reduce over a period of time It really misses the point entirely.
    Don't get me wrong, my point is not to illustrate what to expect, but to illustrate what is possible, and what is likely.

    The idea that this will somehow become a big deal is (I think) a faulty perception of how it works. The idea is bigger than the talent. Blizzard apparently sees it the same way, but we may both be wrong. That's why this is being implemented on the PTR for testing.


    (as a side note, you've had a funny habit lately of posting on theory posts suggesting that these things don't matter or math doesn't apply, the irony of posting to a theorycrafting forum that what we're doing has no relevance is a bit much as an active participant.)
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post

    UA has a LOT of issues as your gear improves. Even if you aren't stacking armor, you will still be using Indestructible on pulls, and when bosses hit hard. You will still likely be wearing Devium's Ring when you get it, Bile-Encrusted Medallion, the tier chest and gloves. Even a DK NOT gearing for armor will be getting very, very close to the armor cap. The harder the content and the better your gear get, the worse UA gets as a mitigation talent. On heroic 25 man Festergut, even heroic 10 man Festergut, it becomes a simply worse overall talent than WoTN when compared side to side, and definitely worse than VB which flat scales (and also scales the effectiveness of WoTN on use).
    You have to be at 40K armor, buffed, before you start loosing any benefit from unglyphed UA. At that point you are aprox 10K away from the armor cap, and at aprox 72.5 percent physical mitigation from armor. Popping UA at that point will bring you up to 50K which is very slightly over the 75 percent mitigation point, giving you 2.5 more percent mitigation. That is 2.5/27.5 or about 9 percent additional mitigation from armor (meaning of course that a hit that would have gotten in for 30K is now getting in for about 27.3K). It is only when you start exceeding 40K armor that UA beginst to really start loosing value as a cool down.

    Oh and I actually did a quick skim of some logs last night, frost DK tanks have been invloved in 25m LK Kills in at least all of the following guilds: Gong Show, Juggernaut, Exodus, Insomniax, A-Team. A brief inspection of all of the above tanks reveals they are switch hitters using both frost and blood, but they are def. in frost in the LK logs.
    Last edited by Nephelai; 02-22-2010 at 01:58 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    His point is/was pretty valid. .
    I meant my own personal point bringing up Devium, since Devium is bad. Vah's point is very, very valid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    (as a side note, you've had a funny habit lately of posting on theory posts suggesting that these things don't matter or math doesn't apply, the irony of posting to a theorycrafting forum that what we're doing has no relevance is a bit much as an active participant.)
    A lot of the math done on these forums doesn't have any relevance to actually playing the game or how it actually performs in the game. It's always been that way. I'm sorry if that's offensive, but the way you used it above in regards to WoTN proves my point to a T. The way you used to use it defending old UA, the way people used to try to use it in regards to the first iterations of warrior protection talents, or mathematical simulations on Hydross, or average damage over time with avoidance V stamina on fights like Steelbreaker... sometimes theorycrafters just need to stop it and work on something I like to call Realitycraft.


    @ Nephelai - Almost every tank will start eclipsing 40K before they finish ICC. EVERY tank should be far beyond 40K in heroic ICC. I suspect the frost tanks on LK might be frost for reasons that aren't tanking... anyone that will be tanking LK himself will be blood post patch unless they aren't totally familiar with fight mechanics.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    @ Nephelai - Almost every tank will start eclipsing 40K before they finish ICC. EVERY tank should be far beyond 40K in heroic ICC. I suspect the frost tanks on LK might be frost for reasons that aren't tanking... anyone that will be tanking LK himself will be blood post patch unless they aren't totally familiar with fight mechanics.
    DK tanks are so good at the off tanking duties on LK comparitively, that I am not sure why you would put one on LK regardless of how well they can handle him (unless of course you have more then one DK tank, but I would prefer a general raid comp that can bring three of the four tanking classes). Arguably frost is the better spec for the various offtanking duties (due to aoe snap), and I have no doubt thats why those tanks were using frost in that encounter. DG on shamblings is just too clean not to use if you have the option.

    While we don't have a geared druid tank in my current guild, I really think in ICC one Pally that can go heals, one Druid that can go heals, and one DK that can go dps, is optimal. I wouldn't call any of them the "main" tank because the role they fit best changes from fight to fight.

    Edit: the only reason I specified a druid over a warrior in that comp is because that comp allows you to increase dps/single target heals/raid heals, on any fight you two tank.
    Last edited by Nephelai; 02-22-2010 at 03:57 PM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephelai View Post
    You have to be at 40K armor, buffed, before you start loosing any benefit from unglyphed UA.

    Well aside from the obvious fact you get zero benefit on non-pysical damage from UBA, I can easily get to 40k buffed (and far beyond that with a armor trinkets) without going for lack of threat/stam. One armor trinket (which is the norm for me in most cases) will push me to this point. With absolutely no armor bonuses aside from what is on my t10/badge gear (ie. no armor rings, amulet, trinkets) i'm sitting at 36k armor raid buffed, and more importantly i pre-pot with an indestructible potion for any encounter where physical damage is a concern, that's a 3k armor boost in and of itself for most of the short encounters, and that alone puts me very near 40k.

    What is the point? Well, you said it yourself, UBA looses a lot of it's thunder when you have that level of gear. Even in the situations where the physical damage is all that you care about, there is generally more survivability to be gained from Vampiric blood. Frost DK tanks have been "involved" in those LK kills for one reason: chillblains on valkyrs and until recently the plague buff allowing the dk to spread the Lich King's own disease for massive damage to adds in p1. I can assure you, without any doubt, that if this bug had not existed, and chillblains were inferior to other slowing effects, there would have been no dk tanks in these kills. Juggernaut does not have a dk "tank," on their roster but rather a dps dk (an alt if I am not mistake, one who participates in their main-raids for these situations only) who is well geared from secondary raids, and ready to fill in for gimmicks such as these.

    At the moment, there is no better combo on the lich king than Bear/Warrior, with Bear/Paladin as a very close runner-up.

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