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Thread: PTR 3.3.3 - Death Knight - Tanks

  1. #221
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    Well now that the patch is here, it might be interesting to revive this threat a bit...
    Sadly i can only conclude that the IT change is exactly as bad as i feared it would be.

    Technically I have done some testing on XT, Patch ect... whatever I could think of was "Still-standing" boss fights... and then I went with something no DK tanks should ever do (In my opinion), i removed RS and OB from my rotation...
    With what results?... that I'm running over 11k TPS stable as a 2H Frost specked tank... and that is a to warm welcome of an IT focused rotation... (That is pure BS, PS, IT and FS rotation)...

    Now I deliberately removed OB/RS because I wanted to see just how bad things had gotten...
    Granted the DPS would be better had i used those, but that was not what was under the test bench in this turnaround...

    Well... While it is lovely that I can properly out threat anything moving now as a DK...
    I think this is to much of an Open door for DK tanks with previously poor TPS performance...

    what are others results if you forget about anything than trying to make sure you spam IT as often as possible??
    (Not because it is necessarily the best way to go for a tank, but because the IT change is interesting to see how much we can bank out)
    Last edited by dotJEM; 03-26-2010 at 08:56 AM.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by dotJEM View Post
    Technically I have done some testing on XT, Patch ect... whatever I could think of was "Still-standing" boss fights... and then I went with something no DK tanks should ever do (In my opinion), i removed RS and OB from my rotation...
    With what results?... that I'm running over 11k TPS stable as a 2H Frost specked tank... and that is a to warm welcome of an IT focused rotation... (That is pure BS, PS, IT and FS rotation)...
    )
    Would love to see those parses so I could give you your actual TPS performance. It's not going to be 11K.

  3. #223
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    Does anyone have a good threat parser? 11k sounds pretty easy to hit from what I've seen using only IT and supporters as Frost.

    I was cruising around 15-18k as Blood using DS to convert FU pairs to Death runes and spamming IT instead of HS. /cry That was still using RS, mind you.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #224
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    Omen should be 100% accurate because it uses the API but it includes any threat even if it isn't yours. I found TankadinTps at Maintankadin a while ago and it doesn't look to be too far off but you need to adjust the IT threat value in the code for it to be close to accurate. WMO has a threat report but I have no idea if it is accurate.

    I find the IT change is nice but not overboard if used as intended. Of course you can spam IT to boost up threat but that doesn't seem necessary. I've also found that for once I have to watch what I do as the usual habit of throwing up diseases while the other tank is picking up a mob or boss is a bad idea now. I'm not sure that is any different than if your warrior tank decides to Shield Slam ASAP when you were throwing up diseases. It's just something we have to adjust to.

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Küren View Post
    Omen should be 100% accurate because it uses the API but it includes any threat even if it isn't yours. I found TankadinTps at Maintankadin a while ago and it doesn't look to be too far off but you need to adjust the IT threat value in the code for it to be close to accurate. WMO has a threat report but I have no idea if it is accurate.

    I find the IT change is nice but not overboard if used as intended. Of course you can spam IT to boost up threat but that doesn't seem necessary. I've also found that for once I have to watch what I do as the usual habit of throwing up diseases while the other tank is picking up a mob or boss is a bad idea now. I'm not sure that is any different than if your warrior tank decides to Shield Slam ASAP when you were throwing up diseases. It's just something we have to adjust to.
    I have certainly found this "need to adjust" thing this week. I have some habits like, reapplying diseases immediately after a taunt off instead of hammering an OB because it used to be a lower threat use of runes that wouldn't yank aggro back, that need to be changed now. Even on trash pulls I have found that running up and starting my rotation on a mob I intend to let the other tank hold will often yank aggro, and if the other tank is starting off on a boss pull, then allowing him to slap the boss around a few times before I open up is essential to a smooth start.

    None of these adjustments are "hard" but there are certainly some old habits that must die hard.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Does anyone have a good threat parser? 11k sounds pretty easy to hit from what I've seen using only IT and supporters as Frost.

    I was cruising around 15-18k as Blood using DS to convert FU pairs to Death runes and spamming IT instead of HS. /cry That was still using RS, mind you.
    WoWMeterOnline and doing the threat conversions yourself is the best way. Omen is extremely spiky, even with the right settings it doesn't give an accurate read. I think that's where most people are reporting these numbers, they aren't averaging in the large lulls in frost runes (aka the reality portion of IT spam).

  7. #227
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    Indeed, for Kuren. Omen is nice to see what is live, but I wouldn't put too much faith on remembering TPS snapshots. It is accurate for whatever window you set, but you only remember the numbers of when you glance at it, so you are only seeing moments of threat, not the overall averages or component breakdowns.

    Really what I would love to see on top of the breakdown is a profile. It's never about how much threat you make, most tanks can handily out-threat their dps down the road, that is not an issue, but it can be very key to see burst and opening responses and profiles. I'm weird, I like looking at stuff like that.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #228
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    Ive glanced at omen as well as using Skada, Skada should (Afaik) also use the build in API, the difference is that Skada is measures TPS over an entire encounter, may be useful in these debates...

    If people feel the need i can run logs, but currently it is a hog on my computer (can't wait to get a new one)...
    I gues others could pinch in as well.

    And for TPS parsers, does anyone have an accurate multiplier for IT?... last i heard was around 7, and all considering that IT crits for up towards 3.5k in a fully raid buffed environment, 11 a'int that far fetched with a rotation of sillyness.

    The IT change MAY be ok if used as intended, but rest assured, nothing ever is used that way if it can be abused...
    This can be a very welcoming door for tanks who previously didn't understand the important parts of TPS...
    But far to welcoming if you ass me, and I in particularly don't like if it for the TPS is beneficial to leave out attacks that in my mind should be your main attacks.

    I'm not sure how i feel about this being a welcome to DW-Frost who uses tank weapons either...
    It is certainly now doable, and it may push the selection of slow DPS tanking weapons down the line...
    I Always liked the Idea that we was meant to use strong hitting weapons, but that is of course an opinion of mine...

    Anyways... Easter is coming up, won't have time to generate logs until after...
    So if really necessary, others could pinch in until i get back.

  9. #229
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    Skada uses the built-in API too. There aren't too many add-ons calculating it.

    The IT multiplier is about 7. The Frost Presence multiplier is about 2. Therefore, the threat from IT is about 14 times it's damage. In Blood spec with no buffs I'll hit for 940 on IT and the threat is about 13.8k. I still feel IT threat only gets out of hand with crits and the damage modifiers in raids.

    Satorri, it's an interesting idea and I don't think any of the parsers break it down by time. TankadinTPS will break it down by ability so it has graphs that are similar to what you get at WoL/WMO.

    I do agree though that any report that includes the TPS shown in Omen isn't scientific. I only use it to look at the total threat value. As DKs our threat is all over the place. I've noticed that other classes are much more consistent on that number though.

  10. #230
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    Ok so in summary, what spec have the best survivability / threat produce?

  11. #231
    Bloofronholy
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itandir View Post
    Ok so in summary, what spec have the best survivability / threat produce?
    Not quite sure. I played around with a spec today, which is slightly different from the one I'm posting here. I thought this would be the best for ridicuLOL single target TPS, because you get to press Icy Touch 6 times in a row with a 130 RP bar for maximum Frost Strike dumps.

    The sustained threat is about 9-11k I think, and when you get around to spam your Icy Touch you easily burst up to over 20k.

    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#j0gh0hZGxe0Abf0c0cuzAo0x

    Glyphs: Obliterate, Frost Strike and Rune Strike

    Here's two screenshots of my performance in a 10H ICC raid.
    http://lotto.3rex.net/festergut.jpg
    http://lotto.3rex.net/putricide.jpg

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itandir View Post
    Ok so in summary, what spec have the best survivability / threat produce?
    It doesn't matter. Threat production with every spec is beyond what any DPS will be pulling threatwise.

  14. #234
    Yes, and survivability is easy to raid. Blood on average, situationally Frost or Unholy have the upper hand but it is only in isolated cases, and there's too few of them to bring them up to par. The new WotN just beats the living daylight out of the other two specs when it comes to surviving blunt trauma.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

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