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Thread: Where do shamans sit in the healing hierarchy?

  1. #21
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    To add to above. A Paladin can also boost his healing by Beaconing the current tank and snipe raid heals from you (on fights such as Saurfang the OT is not taking any considerable damage over the rest of the raid). This will increase his HPS, but will cost more for him and all it does is make you overheal more instead of him.

    In fact, I often, if not always, go on 10mans being the 'swing-healer'. It is probably the hardest job of all, as you do not only need to keep an eye on BOTH their jobs, your job is to also anticipate the trouble areas and fill in before you have someone in your raid die. You should try telling your Paladin to do your job on Saurfang or Rotface, see if he still thinks it's being carried.
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  2. #22
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    Wow, the folks saying resto shams provide low HPS just boggle my mind, to the extent that I wonder if we're talking about the same class. On fights that don't conflict significantly with shaman mechanics, they can crap out just silly healing numbers (assuming they've geared for it, I've found shams have to consciously gear for throughput in a way I haven't seen pallies or priests have to. (I'm a druid nub, so I won't comment on them)).

    As someone mentioned earlier, fight mechanics make a very significant difference to shams. Movement fights are rough for shams, so are fights with large amounts of raid damage to people that aren't standing near each other. On single tank fights, shams can put out pally like hps with similar longevity, though pallies leap ahead when they can start making use of beacon. Similarly on heavy aoe fights, shammies can roll their face on their riptide/chain heal combo to put out similar throughput to hot rolling druids.

    The big downsides to shammies is their reliance on standing still to cast, and their lack of cd's outside of NS. The other healing classes have a way to spike healing out at the cost of cd's or other resources. Shammies, short of blowing heroism, are running pretty close to max hps just by healing normally.

  3. #23
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    Shamans can't put out high HPS? Are we playing the same game? It is a little fight dependent, but I find Shaman can push the DPS meters just as much as a tree can. They can easily top them on fights with spike raid damage. A successful healing group is populated by healers who work well together, not healers who are trying to top the meters.

  4. #24
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    Ok, i realize everyone is giving their opinion on where shaman's land in the healing hierarchy. But in the end does it really matter if your first, last or somewhere in the middle, as long as the boss is dead, everyone (hopefully) is alive. Then it doesn't matter, because you did what you were supposed to do which was HEAL, whether ur assigned to heal the tanks or heal the raid, you did what you were asked to do. If you managed to save the raid from a wipe, congrats to you for doing it, for your quick thinking and even quicker reaction to what was going on.
    Yes, I know meters mean something to some people, you can use them as a tool to improve performance, spot possible problems areas, etc etc. But in the end if those things don't exist it shouldn't matter if your at the top or at the bottom or somewhere in the middle.
    Before anyone says something, I play a disc priest, one of the healing class's that people argue over what our raid role is. I end up having to tank heal, I do just fine. I keep my targets up with very little problems. While I am getting help from resto druids and a resto shaman, I still don't have many issues keeping my targets alive. Before someone says, a holy paladin would be better in my position, maybe, but my guild didn't have holy paladins available til recently, so I stepped up.
    But my point remains the same, it shouldn't matter where you end up in the healing meters or hierarchy, because as long as you do your job that is all that matters. A good raid leader will bring a diverse group of healers if he can, for what each can bring to the raid, not for who is the top dog.

  5. #25
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    if shamans are low HPs, they're doing something wrong/spec'd wrong/gemmed wrong.

    There is no one in my guild who can out heal me, regardless of better gear, when things hit the wall. I'm not always going full tilt, but when I do no one can compete on raid and I'm right up there on single target due to haste and ancestral proc. All that said... are people doing their job, is the boss dead, are people alive? Ultimately that's all that matters.

    As for disc... you're awesome tank healers and i LOVE healing with discs. Shield peppering the raid is just awesome in those aoe fights even if it reduces HPS I really don't care. It allows me to mix up my role a little for burst heals. Good discs will have "crappy" heals, but then you look at guessed absorbs and it's through the roof.

  6. #26
    I find I dont really care so much for hps long as people dont die I'm doing my job if I'm tank healing or raid healing. I do how ever glance at the meters after a night of raiding and my hps on raid healing depends on the rest of the healers as well I'f I'm in a crap healing group I do amazing numbers as if I'm in a good setup I just do ok.. imo this is due to chain maybe nott chaining 4 targets as often with good healers by youre side... as somtimes maybe just 2-3 targets in range for it isnt on full hp.

    Where I do see Shammys thought is somewhere around where priests where in tbc we can do everything (almost cant run around instant casting to much other than every riptide cd) we aren't the best at much butt I do find that I top the meters on fights like Blood Queen and Lich king. (and I'm running with a push-back spec rather than a max true putt spec. As I have to tank heal every now and then.. doing this I also try and keep my haste floating around 1k and keep my mp5 a little higher)

    We are in a good place we gett to do difrent stuff instead of always mindlesly spamming the tank or chaining the raid.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrane View Post
    They can fill the role of tank healing and raiding healing well enough to allow them to do either in pretty much any situation.

    They're not the preferred healers for either, however. Thats more like:

    Tank Healing - > Pally > Disc > Shaman/Druid > Holy Priest

    Raid Healing - > Holy > Druid > Shaman > Disc > Pally
    I must say Disc priests are much better tank healers then paladins yes paladins are good tank healers they do not have all the utilities that a priest does.

    But on with the actual topic of the forum I find that shamans are better raid healers then tank healers Ive never actually healed with a shammy seriously Im just saying from what ive seen.

  8. #28
    Disc are not "tank healers" in the classical sense. For that matter, neither is a Paladin.

    Both are tanks healer. The underline is important. A Paladin's next-best to healing two tanks is to Beacon the single tank she is assigned to, and snipe heals in the raid. Viable, but hardly doing tankhealing as the main job then, right? Let a Pally not use Beacon (and actually focus on a single tank), and I nom nom them while making them redundant on my Shammy. I got AF, I got more output, faster reactions (I can actually heal most fights in 10man reactively, yes. 1,1s HWs for the win.).

    Likewise, a Disc assigned to only 1~2 targets suffers. Disc starts flourishing at something around 4 targets, being able to use Disc Shields like crazy while using Flash Heals and Penance to cushion spikes among the tanks. When we heal Marrowgar25, we use 1 Disc + 1 Shammy for the tanks, Shields + CH, much better than a Pally on two and a Disc on one.

    Paladins excel at healing two tanks, or two important targets. But they need to be given the chance to do that as 50% of their healing is based on it. Disc excels at shielding multiple targets which are part of a small set of targets to be healed. They can rarely do all the healing on them alone, but in total it is much better than assigning them one target and another healer the other three. Let both share all four targets.
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  9. #29
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    This is very simple, I love a good shaman healer in raid because they are versitile. All classes of healers have there place in raid, have you ever raided to heavy with one class?... It is a balance. We all complement each other when working together. It is when the HPS meter becomes your measure of a healer that we all fail. Being holy Priest, I can at times beat the crap out of any class in raid group. My purpose is to get the raid group to the end alive with my fellow healers. There is no "one" best healer, we all have our times that we shine.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnThrak View Post

    A druid's superior raid-HPS doesn't mean much in itself, because to keep Rejuv rolling and place WG he gets no free global cooldowns. His reaction speed to actual killing damage is virtually inexistant (or his raidhealing will suffer, badly). Hence the HPS just doesn't make for any comparability. The Druid spams the raid to counter the baseline raid damage)
    So druids dont use nourish, mine hits for 4.5k, 1 odd second cast, and im feral
    Let me los #@*^##&

  11. #31
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    I'm a shaman

    I'm a geared 80 shaman and in my opinion there are far less wipes with a shaman healer than any other healer. earth shield is a big deal for tank healing but no one has really talked about it. Too many shamans use mana spring totem instead of healing totem. I'll do a whole heroic and not get below 80% mana without throwing mana totem, so why not have an extra 600 hp a sec going to everyone in the party with healing stream totem? Next, if you're in a dungeon or a raid with a lot of poison just drop Cleansing totem which cures everything instantly meaning less healing. I even DPS 1.5k while healing all the new heroics without anyone coming close to dying. So, after all this being said my point is: It's the player not the class. From what I've seen all healers do what they are supposed to do, you just have to know how to make em do it!

    PS Shamans wear mail and have a shield which keep us from dying as quick as cloth wearers.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avataa View Post
    I must say Disc priests are much better tank healers then paladins yes paladins are good tank healers they do not have all the utilities that a priest does.

    But on with the actual topic of the forum I find that shamans are better raid healers then tank healers Ive never actually healed with a shammy seriously Im just saying from what ive seen.
    Utilities don't keep tanks alive 15k average holy lights do.

    on restos they seem to be able to do either :\

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonlava View Post
    I'm a geared 80 shaman and in my opinion there are far less wipes with a shaman healer than any other healer. earth shield is a big deal for tank healing but no one has really talked about it. Too many shamans use mana spring totem instead of healing totem. I'll do a whole heroic and not get below 80% mana without throwing mana totem, so why not have an extra 600 hp a sec going to everyone in the party with healing stream totem? .
    Because you are most likely not the only mana user in the party. Mages and such will thank you for their improved mana regen.

    I will totally agree on cleansing though; any time I know there is poison in an encounter I have the totem on deck.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
    any time I know there is poison in an encounter I have the totem on deck.
    Mind you, the cleansing totem will be removed as of the new expansion: Cataclysm. Read up on your class changes here for proof.

    Basing my argument on the new expansion, which would be the turning point of this discussion. Seeing as blizzard are adding the new spell "Healing Rain" we can expect Shaman's to somewhat overcome the HoTs of that of a druid in terms of both single target healing (Earthliving, Earth Shield) and multi-target healing. The great thing about this new spell is that it is not channeled as apposed to a druid's "Tranquility". This will allow the Shaman 2 Non-channeled HoT AoE Spells meaning that we shaman healers will be just as if not more extensive in terms of raid healing.

    Another interesting thing that Blizzard has decided to do is to change "Healing Wave" into "Greater Healing Wave", and adding a "replacement spell" of mere Healing Wave. Making this similar to the BC setup of a Holy Priest, we can begin to see that Blizzard, (Being that Shaman's previously were, in truth, most effective with raid healing, in comparison to tank healing) are beginning to open up more opportunities for Shaman's to act as single target focused healers. This makes them the hybrid of a Holy Priest and a Pally Healer. I must emphasize that we can assume that the casting time would be in-between that of "Lesser healing Wave" and "Greater Healing Wave", meaning that Shaman's with better haste ratings would not have to worry about the decision when it comes to minuscule but fast heals (Most likely suitable for movement encounters) or large but slow heals (Most likely suitable for stationary encounters with a single target in mind), this means that we shamans can now fill another gap in our healing abilities -> Reasonable heals of lesser movement. Examples of this would probably be raids like OS or rather than suggesting raids, it gives us a chance to understand the possible scripting Blizzard has implemented for bosses of level 85 instances/raids.

    A fact that slightly shocked me at first would be the fact that Blizzard is getting rid of MP5 Stats on gear. Since BC/WotLK, Shaman's have been relying on this stat as their main mana source. Being that Shaman's do not rely on Spirit as much as Priests or Druids. However, one thing Blizzard did ensure is that the Benefit of Spirit that shamans gain would be increased. Now this is interesting as it may suggest Shaman Talents that bring forth spirit benefits to other areas of a Shaman's Healing, similar to that of a Warlock's "Fel Shield". Now, knowing that Priests/Druids/Pallies do not have specific abilities such as these, we better not venture into this area with the exception of the thought that Shaman's are very "Hybridic" meaning that these talents may be introduced in other areas of the talent tree. Most likely elemental, giving more opportunity for increased healing via Hybrid Builds.

    Contributing to my discussion on the new healing wave set ups Blizzard has also added a new spell "Spiritwalker's Grace". This is similar to "Barkskin" but also allows movement to be cancelled out in the factor of spell interruption. This instantly brings forth 2 points in my mind.

    1) This will allow a shaman to do increased single target healing with using this buff as an opportunity for "Greater Healing Wave" spam in case of emergency (especially in situations where one cannot do large heals due to a movement encounter).

    2) Personally, I use movement + quartz (casting bar addon), to make my healing very efficient in terms of spell cast clipping. This would mean a huge disadvantage to users similar to me as we will have to wait the whole length of a cast before we can move safely unless using the escape key. However, if I'm correct the escape key cancels the spell completely (please correct me if I am wrong). This means that clipping will be useless in these 10 seconds of the buff.

    One last thing I would like to point out is that the Shaman's Chain Heal is the most powerful multiple target healing spell in the game currently. This being with the consequences of range and cast time. This means that Shaman's are currently great for 5-Man dungeons (along with the Glyph of Chain Heal [Heals an extra target]) and are great for concentrated groups of healing, making them statistically, in terms of each global it would take to heal a whole raid: 2nd to Holy Priests or Resto Druids for raid healing as of this current expansion (WotLK).

  15. #35
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    1) Lets drop the subject before we veer too far off course.
    2) In response to your summary of healing roles. I'd say that hammering this discussion and trying to end it would be an unfortunate move as everybody seems to be piping in with their own opinions on shaman healing. If you read the whole thread, you will see that this discussion is yielding interesting comments from various people, making it not only diverse but at the same time something that can somewhat contribute to Shaman Mechanics.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 05-21-2010 at 01:15 AM.

  16. #36
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    This whole notion of Disc Priest not being a good raid healer is irritating - see it over and over again in these post. I have a Disc Priest (Cynisel - Blackhand) and a Resto Shammy (Masspoot - Blackhand). I get asked all the time in PUGS on tough fights "do you have a holy offspec" and the answer is "no" and we always 1 shot them.

    Both my Shammy and Disc priest are good..., but on my Disc priest she has such incredible mana regen that I can bubble ALMOST an entire 25 man raid during most of the intense part of a fight (i.e. after blight on Fester, phase 3 of PP, etc..) So, yes literally the Disc isn't a good raid "healer" because we mitigate, we don't heal as much. So many times I see people post healing meters that show me last or near last.. but then I post the healing + absorbs meter and I jump to #1 or #2 easy. I have even been kicked from Raids based on meter performance in the early days without a conversation.. My Disc is the only toon I have that is almost impossible to go OOM with.. between my trinkets, Belf racial, Mana Regen, and Shadowfiend Glyph I can cast non-stop most fights long after the other healers have went OOM.

    Bottom line: A properly played Disc priest is fun for me because you are dealing with a lot more spells (PW:S, PoM, Flash Heal, Renew, Pain Suppression, Penance, Mass Dispel, etc..).

    The challenges I always have with my Shammy are:
    (1) Basically live off Riptide, Chain Heal, and Lesser Healing Wave (kinda boring)
    (2) On my Disc I can control exactly which raid members get priority or protection / healz, where as on Shammy you either have to (a) cast Chain Heal and hope they are in range or (b) cast riptide / lesser healing wave and hope the raid doesn't take damage. Also Chain heal is rather slow compared to PW:S, Penance, Pain Suppression (which are all instant cast).
    (3) During 5 man heroics, ranged love to spread out making healing as a Shammy more difficult IMO because Chain Heal doesn't hit them... I am always having to single target heal 2-3 people because they are spread (not hard mind you since most people are overgeared for Heroics, but not as easy as my Disc priest).

    There have been so many times in the early days of ICC where I was asked to go Shadow spec and 2 heal a boss when I was low on the "healing" meters.... we wipe, I got back Disc and we easily down the boss as long as DPS is there.

    Sure, if the whole raid is taking massive damage the Shammy is better in that one scenario, but most damage is not "massive" unless people are not doing things right (i.e. standing in "stuff", not getting behind ice blocks on Sindragosa, etc..) but the Disc Priest can do fine in normal raid healing circumstances.

    Now, I like playing both toons.. but if I had to choose I would take my Disc priest any day for healing in general (both raid and single target).

    On the other hand, I love my Ele better than Shadow for DPS.

    Just my opinion based on my experience. I have never healed with a Paladin or Druid so I won't post opinion on hearsay on those.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chainsawal View Post
    This whole notion of Disc Priest not being a good raid healer is irritating - see it over and over again in these post. I have a Disc Priest (Cynisel - Blackhand) and a Resto Shammy (Masspoot - Blackhand). I get asked all the time in PUGS on tough fights "do you have a holy offspec" and the answer is "no" and we always 1 shot them.

    Both my Shammy and Disc priest are good..., but on my Disc priest she has such incredible mana regen that I can bubble ALMOST an entire 25 man raid during most of the intense part of a fight (i.e. after blight on Fester, phase 3 of PP, etc..) So, yes literally the Disc isn't a good raid "healer" because we mitigate, we don't heal as much. So many times I see people post healing meters that show me last or near last.. but then I post the healing + absorbs meter and I jump to #1 or #2 easy. I have even been kicked from Raids based on meter performance in the early days without a conversation.. My Disc is the only toon I have that is almost impossible to go OOM with.. between my trinkets, Belf racial, Mana Regen, and Shadowfiend Glyph I can cast non-stop most fights long after the other healers have went OOM.

    Bottom line: A properly played Disc priest is fun for me because you are dealing with a lot more spells (PW:S, PoM, Flash Heal, Renew, Pain Suppression, Penance, Mass Dispel, etc..).

    The challenges I always have with my Shammy are:
    (1) Basically live off Riptide, Chain Heal, and Lesser Healing Wave (kinda boring)
    (2) On my Disc I can control exactly which raid members get priority or protection / healz, where as on Shammy you either have to (a) cast Chain Heal and hope they are in range or (b) cast riptide / lesser healing wave and hope the raid doesn't take damage. Also Chain heal is rather slow compared to PW:S, Penance, Pain Suppression (which are all instant cast).
    (3) During 5 man heroics, ranged love to spread out making healing as a Shammy more difficult IMO because Chain Heal doesn't hit them... I am always having to single target heal 2-3 people because they are spread (not hard mind you since most people are overgeared for Heroics, but not as easy as my Disc priest).

    There have been so many times in the early days of ICC where I was asked to go Shadow spec and 2 heal a boss when I was low on the "healing" meters.... we wipe, I got back Disc and we easily down the boss as long as DPS is there.

    Sure, if the whole raid is taking massive damage the Shammy is better in that one scenario, but most damage is not "massive" unless people are not doing things right (i.e. standing in "stuff", not getting behind ice blocks on Sindragosa, etc..) but the Disc Priest can do fine in normal raid healing circumstances.

    Now, I like playing both toons.. but if I had to choose I would take my Disc priest any day for healing in general (both raid and single target).

    On the other hand, I love my Ele better than Shadow for DPS.

    Just my opinion based on my experience. I have never healed with a Paladin or Druid so I won't post opinion on hearsay on those.
    This is one reason I just don't like healing 25-man raids very much. I end up having to faceroll chain heal way too much, and it's no fun having a one-button keyboard.

    In 10-man raids there are fewer healers and less-strict healing assignments, and I find the healing to be more dynamic and interesting. (I have very limited experience in 25-mans, though). I tend to do a lot of tank healing, or switching between tank and raid healing depending on fight phases etc

  18. #38
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    I've got all 4 healer classes at 80 raiding. As discussed "how does one fare against another healer" implies some are better classes than others. Aside from being completely untrue, it is contrary to forum rules, and you should not even be thinking along those lines and posting.

    If everybody is alive and you cleared the content, HPS or heal meters is irrelevant. Shame on those of you for treating the subject as an epeen meter, like DPS meters.

    As mentioned earlier, WarTotem said it best, it's a sliding scale, except I would say holy priest are the worst tank healers (and therefore swap druids and holy priests).

    For HPS, shamans kick the crap out of every healer in SPECIFIC situations, mainly raid heals on melee DPS, primarily due to chain heal alone. And if the heal meters look close, also take a gander at the overheal meters, shamans have the lowest overheal percentage, so not only are their HPS great, it's EFFECTIVE healing, since Chain Heal is smart.

    If you are facerolling chainheals, you are doing it wrong. It's Riptide - Chain Heal - and then 2 x HW for massive heals to a few people (or assist tank healing) or 2xLHW to proc 10% damage reduction or LHW+HW. if you complain about Chain healing and nothing else, the same goes for Disc Priests and Prayer of Healing, it's a fact of life, we only have the one raid heal tool and we use it, just as Disc priests use PoH alot sometimes.

  19. #39
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    I definitely haven't really gotten a 'feel' for healing 25-mans effectively, as I mostly heal 10-mans. In a 10-man situation I know who to heal and who is backing me up. I'm used to having the raid's health generally very steady (raiding with a disc priest and resto druid gives a lot of stability) and I do the most direct non-HoT heals. In a 25-man not completely stacked with disc priests and resto druids, everyone's health spikes everywhere and it's very stressful to me--there are too many people taking damage and I end up feeling like CH is the only tool that's going to save everyone. But I'm sure if I raided 25m with a consistent group of people (as opposed to pugging voa and occasionally icc 25) I would get used to it more. Now if only I could convinced the ranged DPS in VoA that the other ranged DPS do not have cooties, they can stand relatively close to eachother as long as they're not standing in fire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Errvalunia View Post
    Now if only I could convinced the ranged DPS in VoA that the other ranged DPS do not have cooties, they can stand relatively close to eachother as long as they're not standing in fire.
    I agree with this completely. I find myself screaming at people to stay together, especially when the raid does not require the players to look out for any AoE from the boss (i.e. Kel's Freeze). The thing is, the Shaman would most probably be the most effective raid healer if everyone does stay together. That being said, there are some encounters where we are left no choice.

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