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Thread: Cataclysm Holy Paladin Guide

  1. #41
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    As long as you're not taking +hit items over caster dps most people shouldn't really have an issue with you wearing +hit weapons. Judging is nowhere near enough of a reason to make +hit a healer stat, if you ever take those weapons over caster dps who need them there's something wrong with you. :/ I have zero hit and never have a problem keeping JotP up, you shouldn't ever aim to get it.

    I did actually consider grabbing a +hit sword off auriaya (forgot the name) back in the day, when weapons never seemed to drop for us and I was still using a naxx10 mace. Did end up replacing it once toc came out though heh.

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  2. #42
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    As some one who just literally, dual spec'ed into healing on his paladin not but 2/3 days ago. I am using this sword, for my healing set. I am literally brand new to healing, and so far have not yet found anything better that gives me the bonus'es to healing, int, and other stats that I have been told I need desperatly as a paladin who heals. Though, I'll be looking for input and guidence as a new healer soon.

  3. #43
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    I have the Seethe on my holy pally because it's a great sword for healers, hit rating or not.

  4. #44
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    Yeah, I use Frost Needle. Keep hoping for Lockjaw but the bugger only drops when I'm tanking (and Bonebreaker Scepter/Facelifter only drop when I heal).

    It's not bad. Not ideal, but not bad. If it drops and none of the DPS want it for mainspec, take it - if you outroll a warlock or mage you'd better append that with "just kidding".

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charonites View Post
    I'm actually sick and tired of people looking at my Paladin's gear and seeing he has Seethe, from Forge of Souls, and telling me that it is a DPS item and I shouldn't have it - when any good Holy Paladin knows that there isn't much else they CAN use! Pre-ToC, most Holy Paladins will be aiming to get this due to the Paladin's disability in that they cannot use Daggers, and there are some nice Healer daggers out there, Surgeon's Needle is one such dagger. When I then tell them I'm aiming for Frost Needle from Lord Marrowgar 10 Man, they tell me I'm gimp and call me a nab. The way I see it - yes, it's primarily a DPS item, useful for a Mage, Warlock or Shadow Priest - but I need to keep Judgements of the Pure active, which requires me to actually HIT the target with my Judgements, so with the talent increasing it's hit chance, and the hit from these items - that makes "hit", a Healer stat for me, as it becomes "haste".. so.. people can stop moaning to be honest.
    Anyone that looks at your gear and sees ONE hit item, and it's a weapon like Seethe, and decides to make a comment, is just lording their "knowledge" over you, pure and simple. Now, if you had an assortment of hit items, then a comment might be made, especially when there are perfectly easy to get items which are much better for healers in that slot. But, something like Seethe, is one of the best weapons a Holy Paladin can get outside of ICC before they get into ICC. There are some drops in ToC which are better in some ways, but not so much better that you would be considered "bad-off" to have a weapon like Seethe, and, strictly speaking, they're far more difficult to obtain. You're talking about one chance a week, versus anywhere from 1-5 other healers. Whereas, in a heroic forge of souls, if no caster DPS want the weapon, you're the only one that can really use it if it drops.

    When I was gearing up my Paladin, she had just hit 80 and I didn't yet have raid experience. ICC 5 mans had been out for a month or two at that point and I knew them quite well. I got stuck healing in a Forge of Souls feeling vastly undergeared. But I held my own weight and no one else needed Seethe (I asked) so I took it. Later that night, feeling confident from healing H. FoS, I got into an ICC 10 run and Frost Needle dropped off of Marrowgar. I thought for sure that someone would need it, but no one did. So, instead of having it sharded, I replaced Seethe with it. A couple weeks later I got Argent Resolve from ToC 25 and used it because I liked the stats on it better (though, to be honest, it was more of a sidegrade than an upgrade).

    No one ever made a comment about my weapons, though I sometimes joked about it. The fact of the matter is that most people shouldn't, and won't care. If your healing is poor though, then people might start looking, and, if they see it, they may make a comment. Just remember that having the +hit on your weapon is not going to make your healing worse. If you're healing poorly, it's likely an itemization issue on all of your gear, not because you have a weapon with +hit, or, sadly, because you may have some healing-style issues which inhibit you.

    Also, I've seen Lockjaw drop every time I have downed Rotface except the one time my Paladin managed to drop him with a pug.

  6. #46
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    HL vs FoL

    I'm the type of pali that mainly casts HL... at least I was. I recently joined a guild that has a pali who mainly casts FoL and his healing numbers are consistantly top of the charts by 4-5%, which has caused me to rethink the whole debate. We had a conversation that went something like this...

    Holymoses: My HL cast time is about 1.4 seconds, and when I use trinkets and and the 4p t10 proc it gets down to 1.04 seconds.
    Motto: Thats awesome, but how often is the tank taking 15-20k damage every 1.5 seconds.
    Holymoses: Good point...
    Motto: My FoL hits for 6-9k every 1.05 seconds and I can cast it pretty much indefinitely.
    Holymoses: Thats a pretty big hot on the tank when you spam the raid isn't it?
    Motto: Ya... it is.

    The moral of the story is, some fights FoL healing is better than HL healing and in other fights its just the opposite. Now I keep two sets of gear, and on some bosses (Lady Death for ex.) I break my 4p t10 bonus, beacon the tank, and heal the raid. I usually FoL heal for Gunship as well and even on Saurfang when its my job to beacon the first mark and heal the tank.

    In conclusion, if your FoL is hitting for 6k white and 9k crit, and you have a good amount of haste, the only real determinate of whether of not HL healing is better than FoL is the encounter. I recomend HL healing until you have you have SP on your gear that your FoL is hitting for 5k, and then I would experiement and see that if indeed for some fights FoL healing is in fact superior.

    P.S. And now for something completely different. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone mention Imp Righteous Fury for the Holy/Prot build. 6% less damage is nothing to shake a stick at.

  7. #47
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    Never judge a healing style by the placement on the metres. Never ever do this. Healing metres aren't really a good way to judge how someone is performing in the same way that a dps metre is. They're can be a useful tool if you're wiping alot, but if someone of the same class places above you they're not necessarily playing better. Generally speaking, if the boss is dead healers are doing fine. Pretty sure there's other threads on a similar subject about healing metres in these forums, so I won't really go into it much more.

    Switching between FoL and HL based on the fight is something that you should generally be doing regardless of what the metres look like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holymoses View Post
    Holymoses: Thats a pretty big hot on the tank when you spam the raid isn't it?
    Motto: Ya... it is.
    I'm not entirely sure what this means either. Spamming the raid has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the hot. The FoL hot only applies when FoL is cast directly onto anyone with Sacred Shield. Spamming FoL over the raid is not going to effect it at all.

    The Improved Righteous Fury thing is also mentioned in the guide under talents.

    Improved Righteous Fury: You will want points in Improved Righteous Fury to move on to the next tier and get the final talent in the Protection tree. It’s a useful talent which reduces 6% of damage taken by you when Righteous Fury is up. If you’re worried about threat, you shouldn’t be. Any competent progression raiding tank should be fine regardless of whether or not your healing aggro is amplified by Righteous Fury. Still, if it’s an issue and you can’t win the argument, don’t put Righteous Fury up. The alternative is to dump four points in the next talent as opposed to 1.

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  8. #48
    As an addendum to what Odene said, it is already tricky to say you can judge DPS by DPS meters. Fight-specifics, spec-specifics, gear-level of the raid, raid-composition... these all have a larger impact than the actual spec's power or lack of power in most cases. And let's not even start on player skill yet.

    And healing is reactive. Damage not dealt cannot be healed, only overhealed (time which could have been used refreshing the judgement or depending on fight actually running in and melee with SoW for a Holy Pally, for me as a Shammy I nuke ^_^).
    As such, much more so than for DPS, Healing Meters don't represent the "worth" of a healer to the raid. Only the amount of healing he/she did, which is not their worth to the raid, their ability to keep people alive is. And then add that healing is a team sport, you don't want the healers to contest with each other too much ,that leads to excessive overhealing.
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  9. #49
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    First off you should not be using any pieces of tier 10 other than the shoulders and helm. The rest of the pieces are terrible and the 4 piece bonus is even worse in that encourages bad healing habits for a HL build.

    As too spamming one versus the other...as long as I have replenishment I can cast HL every cast and make it through the fight. Saying you can cast non stop with a FoL build is just not a valid argument.

    You talk about saurfang as a fight that FoL is better on. That may be the case in normal but with the 10% buff you could prob 2 heal it on 25 man. Would not be shocked if I could solo heal it on normal mode. However, try hard mode and tell me how FoL is working for you. Your tank is going to die unless someone else is picking up your slack for you. Kind of a waste of a spot on that fight.

    The situation is as follows now...HL works on every encounter, FL has some encounters where it will not work. It is not worth gemming a second set of gear just so a couple fights can be a little more trivial.

    Now as the ICC buff gets highers FoL becomes more and more viable for the harder encounters.

  10. #50
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    I'd really recommend putting Aura Mastery in both the example specs. There shouldn't really be any question about it, so please don't make people think it is not an obligatory spell.

    One extra point in Conviction (1% crit = 0.5% more healing, plus a tiny mana return) or Benediction (2% cheaper instant spells, of what we almost only use Beacon of Light and Sacred Shield) can't possibly outweight a cooldown like that.

    When running heroic it is practically needed unless one likes to make it more difficult than it has to be. on stuff like the fires on Marrowgar when people are in a tight spot, Festergut when he exhales all gas back into the room, Sindragosa's frost breath, or the Bloodbolt Whirl on Blood-Queen it is a true raid-saver, and even in normal modes it is really helpful on most of the above (at least in 25-man).

    If a group is so 1337 that they don't ever need Aura Mastery, then so be it, but for 99% of the players out there it's a too good ability to pass on. Ever.
    Last edited by Inkompetent; 04-07-2010 at 02:04 PM.

  11. #51
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    It's not an obligatory talent though, and that's why it's considered optional. Taking Aura Mastery is helpful, and when I do get around to making a video I will probably put some emphasis on it. I may put it in an example spec, but Aura Mastery's usefulness is heavily dependent on how you use it, which means, if taken and not used properly, it becomes less useful than the points in other talents you mentioned. But yes, for a skilled healer who knows how to effectively use CDs, there's no reason to skip over Aura Mastery OR Divine Sacrifice/Divine Guardian for that matter.

    As far as the FoL vs HL. Meeks has covered it mostly, albeit a bit bluntly. The fact of the matter, and I got into a silly debate in Trade last night over this, is a Holy Light setup of healing is far more versatile than a Flash of Light setup. Flash of Light setups were primarily supported as of late by the 4pc t9 bonus. Outside of that, they offer very little benefit that Holy Light does not offer. I raid heal with my 1.3 second Holy Light all the time.

    Example:
    Today I was healing Toravon 25 on my Holy Paladin. The healers in my group weren't terribly good, there was 1, maybe 2 healers that were doing anywhere close to the amount of healing I was doing. At times it certainly felt like I was solo healing the raid... on a 25 man. When Whiteouts occurred, my Holy Lights didn't even always bring my non-tank targets up to full. It's not because my Holy Lights were weak, it's because the nature of raid damage in WotLK content is that it's very heavy a lot of the time. I can't see myself spending 2 seconds to get 2 Flashes of Light off for roughly the same amount as a 1.3 second Holy Light for raid healing. It's one more GCD and takes far longer. If it were myself against a Flash of Light healing Paladin, I would have blown them away in healing. The only advantage they would get is mana efficiency. Here's how important mana efficiency is: Are you OOM before the end of that fight? If the answer is no, then you have mana to spare. You're plenty mana efficient. I never went OOM before the fight was over and I was using Holy Lights, so the only advantage of Flash of Light healing in that situation is lost.

    Using Flash of Light as a superior raid heal to Holy Light only holds true if the raid damage is comparatively light. If people are taking around 6-8k damage from the raid-wide attacks, then Flash of Light would be superior. But, in WotLK, more often than not, they're taking FAR more damage than that, and if your healers aren't pulling their weight, Holy Light is the only option.

    Oh, and by the way, my Paladin is set-up for Holy Light healing and almost always tops the meters, generally by as much as your friend. On Toravon today I had 7k hps and topped the other healers by about 9%. To add to what Odene has said. DPS gets to burn through Millions of HP in a Boss kill, which is why their comparative numbers on the meters mean more. There's only so much healing going on. On fights with less healing, healers will look fairly awful even when DPS looks fantastic. In heroics my Paladin often has less than 1k hps, and it's not because I suck. The differences between HPS and total healing done on the same fight is more often a reflection of how you compare to the other healers in your raid, it does not necessarily reflect why one spec is "superior" to the others.

  12. #52
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    First of all: nice guide

    I have some questions though (well actually one for me and one for a friend who just started healing :P)

    This guide suggests Libram of Renewal and says Libram of Veracity sucks. Normally i would agree with this. However, with our raidsetup, it is not very rare to have 3 holy paladins and a disc priest, so raidhealing gets a bit tough. So I thought: ill take some more spellpower to make Glyph of Holy light heal for more. Do you consider this useful for normal fights? (Don't talk about Valithria :P gotta love topping of a whole group AND Valithria with 1 heal :P) We do tend to group up whenever we can because of this and chain heal

    Second thing:

    My friend started healing with his pally at level 80 and isn't very good yet. He often asks me what to gem/enchant and I naturally sent him the HL way Later I was having doubts about this, because, even though the HL way is gonna be more useful (especially in raids), it is also more difficult (mana management etc). Is it a good idea to tell him to respec/regem/rechant his gear to the FoL side? He will probably never heal any progression content anyways and he can always go back if he does and mastered the art of healing a bit more

  13. #53
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    If you have 3 holy paladins and a disc priest in the raid you should really look at possibly getting the disc to go holy, and replace one or both of the pallies with any other healing class. (They could go ret or something I guess.) This option is infinitely preferable to trying to get your glyph to hit harder and relying on it to help aoe heal. If this isn't an option then stacking sp and making use of the glyph is really your only option I guess. As long as you can maintain it without going oom it'd probably be fine for normal stuff.

    With that many paladins I hope you're getting your disc to do some raid healing as well, they can do it, even if it isn't super op like trees.

    As for your friend, if he's never going to heal progression content it's probably ok for him to try fol, although I wouldn't really say that Hl is more difficult. While it is obviously harder to manage your mana with HL, when I use FoL for 5 mans and trash I find it generally requires quicker reactions and more thinking on my feet as to whom I heal next etc.

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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odene View Post
    As for your friend, if he's never going to heal progression content it's probably ok for him to try fol, although I wouldn't really say that Hl is more difficult. While it is obviously harder to manage your mana with HL, when I use FoL for 5 mans and trash I find it generally requires quicker reactions and more thinking on my feet as to whom I heal next etc.
    I agree you gotta think more about who to heal, but not what heal to use. But even if you cast holy light in a party, chances are that people are dieing to soon, while the 1-second heal can just be alternated between 4 party members. Don't forget he just started healing and is new to the whole concept. Normally he would just charge in and do some 360 degree swipe untill everything is dead . So I think it'll make his life easier (well, not his life, but certainly his healing).

    If you have 3 holy paladins and a disc priest in the raid you should really look at possibly getting the disc to go holy, and replace one or both of the pallies with any other healing class. (They could go ret or something I guess.) This option is infinitely preferable to trying to get your glyph to hit harder and relying on it to help aoe heal. If this isn't an option then stacking sp and making use of the glyph is really your only option I guess. As long as you can maintain it without going oom it'd probably be fine for normal stuff.
    Well, the healing setup changes from raid to raid, so it's not always that we have some weird setup The priest does have a holy offspec, but he plays better as disc (and personally I love disc priests, they make spike damage so more dealable ). Also, we are not a hardcore raiding guild, so we do play with non-perfect setups from time to time. This means paladins raidhealing etc (Might be a good thing for healing "fails", spike damage that just sohuln't happen, but it does (Deathwhisper ghosts, all damage at gunship :P, add damage at saurfang, spore fails at festergut, slime spray,...))

    Thanks for the advice. I'm going to talk my friend into FoL healing and I'll just continue the way I do

    And remember: GS is all that matters (Standard troll :P)
    Last edited by Koekimonster; 04-18-2010 at 06:49 AM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odene View Post
    I'm not entirely sure what this means either. Spamming the raid has absolutely nothing to do with the size of the hot. The FoL hot only applies when FoL is cast directly onto anyone with Sacred Shield. Spamming FoL over the raid is not going to effect it at all.
    I think you misunderstood what I meant about FoL acting like a HoT when you beacon the tank and spam heal the raid. Although the FoL HoT is only applied to players with Sacred Shield on them, the act of spam healing the raid when your FoL is below the gcd and you have beacon on a tank means that every 1 second the tank is receiving a 6-9k heal. While of course this is not a HoT and is just a heal every 1 second, as long as you fire off a FoL on every gcd, it is as if there is a 6-9k HoT on the tank because the tank is receiving 6-9k heals every 1 second. If you don't dig the analogy so be it.,

  16. #56
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    Ah I see what you meant now. In your original post it was just called a hot, and not acting like a hot, thus the confusion.

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  17. #57
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    How do you guys use Beacon of Light? The guide has Sacred Shield and BoL on the main tank and spam heals on the off tank. Personally I put BoL on the offtank and SS on the main tank and spam heals on the main tank because SS "increasing the paladin's chance to critically hit with Flash of Light by 50%". Sending that crit'ed heal down to the Beaconed offtank. Does this make sense? Using the guide's way you miss out on the heal over time and the boost to crit. heals.

  18. #58
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    It's fine so long as the tank is not taking so much damage that FoL can't keep up. In a one tank fight you'd probably want to stick to what Lulia wrote in the guide as it allows you to help out with raid heals while still healing the tank.

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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogthenoob View Post
    How do you guys use Beacon of Light? The guide has Sacred Shield and BoL on the main tank and spam heals on the off tank. Personally I put BoL on the offtank and SS on the main tank and spam heals on the main tank because SS "increasing the paladin's chance to critically hit with Flash of Light by 50%". Sending that crit'ed heal down to the Beaconed offtank. Does this make sense? Using the guide's way you miss out on the heal over time and the boost to crit. heals.
    It's always been my understanding that the 50% to crit chance happens whenever sacred shield procs its Absorption effect. Thus, as long as the target is taking damage to proc the effect, you will get the 50% crit. So if you beacon the MT and Shield them and heal the OT, you're still getting the 50% crit heals. You do miss out on the HoT, but you're already likely overhealing the tank so it's not a huge issue. The main reason for my suggestion is because of the ease of applying both through a focus macro. However, you can just as easily make Sacred Shield a mouseover macro or a click and then apply it wherever you want. This is far more efficient in a raid situation and far more useful and thus better. I won't pretend that everything in my guide will min/max to the fullest. It's just about being competent in your raid healing. Following the suggestions in the guide should, in theory, be able to put you among good Holy Paladins. Exceptional is something that won't be gotten out of a guide.

  20. #60
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    It appears I will be taking part in a Holy Paladin roundtable for the Raid Warning Podcats, it's an opportunity to get some more exposure for Tankspot. Even being a top WoW community, Tankspot can always use a bit more exposure. If you have any questions you can submit them here. However, if you can't be bothered by that, I'm willing to take some questions here and attempt to answer them on the show.

    Aliena has previously made an appearance on the show as part of the Priest roundtable, and did a fantastic (does she ever do poorly? Damn perfectionists...) job. So, I hope to represent you guys as well.

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