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Thread: Cataclysm Holy Paladin Guide

  1. #241
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    Hello. I am having trouble figuring something out. As of right now, I have mostly lvl 346 gear and a couple lvl 359 pieces, all with spirit on them. My question is this: should I give up the spirit on my lvl 346 gear to upgrade to 359 items that don't have spirit? I have been trying to figure out if there's a "stat cap" for spirit. I have also heard that some holy plate will be receiving spirit where there was none when the patch comes out. Most of my gear will still have spirit of course, but I have noticed there are a few 359 pieces that have no spirit. My husband keeps pushing me to replace my 346s with these items. Thus far in Cata, I have not had much trouble with mana (after I learned that mindless spamming is no longer the "in" thing for holy pallies hehe). He suggests that maybe I have "too much" mana and should replace some spirit for stats that'll help me heal "bigger"....However, he's no holy pally expert, so I thought I'd see what you all have to say )

  2. #242
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    The "cap" for spirit is when you no longer have mana issues. If your mana bar isn't tending to run out before the end of fights, that's points that could be placed in other stats to, say, give a big enough heal that X person doesn't die next time or whatever. I haven't seen a floating number around for a "spirit cap" and I don't think we necessarily will, it's more about when you're beginning to feel comfortable with your mana.

  3. #243
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    spirit is overrated. Intel also adds to your mp5 (not just through skills, abilities, etc..) but a certain % mp5 is affected by how much Intel you have. spirit is the biggest stat that effects your mp5, but Intel increases your mp5. Does that make any sense? I forget what the exact equation is.

    Your mp5 really comes down to your trinkets. Thats where ur biggest man gain is. Do not use spirit trinkets. They're horrible atm unless spirit gets a buff, you should always be using Intel trinkets, that have some sword of spirit proc. BiS for holy paladins is as follows IMO at least.

    #1 Fall of Mortality = +321 intel, and a chance to increase spirit by 1900.
    #2 Core of Ripeness = +321, and when you use it, increases ur spirit by 1900 for 20 seconds. 2min CD. (when the next patch comes out, this trinket will be useless. As Mana tide is no longer YOUR spirit, its the shamans. This trinket + mana tide = FULL mana. no matter what)
    #3 Tyrandes Favorite Doll = +321 intel, and 4200 mana back every minute (assuming you use at least 21000 mana in a minute, which im certain u will.) this trinket will be #2 when the patch comes out. 4200 mana every minute is about 350mp5
    #4 Darkmoon card: Tsunami = +321 intel, and 400 passive spirit.
    #5 Tear of Blood (Heroic) = +285 intel, and a chance to increase ur spirit by 1700 on healing CRITICALS. (similar to Fall of Mortality, but obtainable through a heroic, and only procs off spell crits.)

    I know thats alot of info, but try to avoid trinkets that have Mastery, or spirit on them. Since Fall of Mortality only drops off Cho'Gall and i'd guess most guilds won't progress that far for awhile, I'd get Darkmoon Card (if you have the gold) and Tyrandes (if you have the patience.) and you'll almost never have mana problems. OR if you dont have the money, or patience, go with Tear of Blood, and use ur valor points to buy Core of Ripeness. Hope this helps =)

    Just remember, if you ever do need more spirit, you can always reforge useless Mastery or crit into it.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawn.3x View Post
    spirit is overrated. Intel also adds to your mp5 (not just through skills, abilities, etc..) but a certain % mp5 is affected by how much Intel you have. spirit is the biggest stat that effects your mp5, but Intel increases your mp5. Does that make any sense? I forget what the exact equation is.

    Your mp5 really comes down to your trinkets. Thats where ur biggest man gain is. Do not use spirit trinkets. They're horrible atm unless spirit gets a buff, you should always be using Intel trinkets, that have some sword of spirit proc. BiS for holy paladins is as follows IMO at least.

    #1 Fall of Mortality = +321 intel, and a chance to increase spirit by 1900.
    #2 Core of Ripeness = +321, and when you use it, increases ur spirit by 1900 for 20 seconds. 2min CD. (when the next patch comes out, this trinket will be useless. As Mana tide is no longer YOUR spirit, its the shamans. This trinket + mana tide = FULL mana. no matter what)
    #3 Tyrandes Favorite Doll = +321 intel, and 4200 mana back every minute (assuming you use at least 21000 mana in a minute, which im certain u will.) this trinket will be #2 when the patch comes out. 4200 mana every minute is about 350mp5
    #4 Darkmoon card: Tsunami = +321 intel, and 400 passive spirit.
    #5 Tear of Blood (Heroic) = +285 intel, and a chance to increase ur spirit by 1700 on healing CRITICALS. (similar to Fall of Mortality, but obtainable through a heroic, and only procs off spell crits.)

    I know thats alot of info, but try to avoid trinkets that have Mastery, or spirit on them. Since Fall of Mortality only drops off Cho'Gall and i'd guess most guilds won't progress that far for awhile, I'd get Darkmoon Card (if you have the gold) and Tyrandes (if you have the patience.) and you'll almost never have mana problems. OR if you dont have the money, or patience, go with Tear of Blood, and use ur valor points to buy Core of Ripeness. Hope this helps =)

    Just remember, if you ever do need more spirit, you can always reforge useless Mastery or crit into it.
    This is pretty blatantly incorrect.

    1. If you forget what the exact equation is, you shouldn't then draw conclusions from math you haven't done. For the record, the formula for spirit regen is: Mp5 In Combat = 0.0025 + Spirit * Sqrt(Intellect) * 0.0083625
    2. Spirit trinkets are far from horrible.
    3. Trinkets are not your "biggest mana gain."
    4. How is core of ripeness going to be useless? How does the change to mana tide even remotely affect how much regen you will still gain from that trinket's spirit?
    5. Tyrandes is already 359 BiS, not "when the patch comes out"
    6. DMC: Tsunami is 2nd BiS at 359 and will continue to be after 4.0.6.
    7: If you're "never having mana problems," use more DLs.
    8. Just about every piece of gear you pick up should have spirit/haste, since Spirit IS our primary regen stat, not int. That's why Heartsong continues to be a superior enchant.

    Your opinion on BiS is wrong. It's not an "opinion" when it's an objectively measurable balance of statistics. Simple math shows which trinkets provide the most throughput and regen.

    EDIT: On a side note, 1/3 of the guilds that have gotten anywhere in Bastion have killed chogall, and 1/2 the guilds have killed council and are working on chogall. Don't jump to assumptions as to how long it is until other players reach your progression level, it just makes you sound condescending.
    Last edited by Papapaint; 02-04-2011 at 10:12 AM.


  5. #245
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    Doesn't normal Fall of Mortality have a 90 sec ICD (with the heroic version having a 75 sec ICD)? That should drop it quite a bit on that list.

    Spirit trinkets are not something I have preferred, but I recently picked up the Jar of Anc Remedies in anticipation of using it on some of the longer heroic raid encounters as we start working on them. I have been not only using INT trinks (Doll and Core) up until now, but have also been using an INT flask and INT food. This just might change for the 9+ minute heroics to come. We just scored our first kill on Maloriak Heroic, and it was just a few seconds shy of being a 10 minute fight. A fight that had me completely oom about 20 seconds before he died, and also wishing I could afford more DLs even before my mana bar went flat. I am going to run the Doll/Jar combo next week for a repeat kill, and will use spirit flask/food.

    Spirit really becomes more important as the fights get longer.
    "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papapaint View Post
    This is pretty blatantly incorrect.

    1. If you forget what the exact equation is, you shouldn't then draw conclusions from math you haven't done. For the record, the formula for spirit regen is: Mp5 In Combat = 0.0025 + Spirit * Sqrt(Intellect) * 0.0083625
    2. Spirit trinkets are far from horrible.
    3. Trinkets are not your "biggest mana gain."
    4. How is core of ripeness going to be useless? How does the change to mana tide even remotely affect how much regen you will still gain from that trinket's spirit?
    5. Tyrandes is already 359 BiS, not "when the patch comes out"
    6. DMC: Tsunami is 2nd BiS at 359 and will continue to be after 4.0.6.
    7: If you're "never having mana problems," use more DLs.
    8. Just about every piece of gear you pick up should have spirit/haste, since Spirit IS our primary regen stat, not int. That's why Heartsong continues to be a superior enchant.

    Your opinion on BiS is wrong. It's not an "opinion" when it's an objectively measurable balance of statistics. Simple math shows which trinkets provide the most throughput and regen.

    EDIT: On a side note, 1/3 of the guilds that have gotten anywhere in Bastion have killed chogall, and 1/2 the guilds have killed council and are working on chogall. Don't jump to assumptions as to how long it is until other players reach your progression level, it just makes you sound condescending.
    WHOA buddy! relax! Thank you for the equation. I said in MY OPINION.

    1. THank you for the equation.
    2. I personally think they're terrible. Thats why I said IN MY OPINION. I never said "Do not use spirit trinkets. They are bad no matter what anyone tells you." if you read a little further it clearly says IMO. As well as my OPINION of BiS trinkets.
    3. Trinkets are a huge part of your mana gain. Having a constant 400 spirit up at all times, from 1 slot in ur inventory, and a passive bonus of 321 intel is equal to 1/5th of my spirit. I dont know about yours nor do I care
    4. Core of Ripeness has a use effect every 2 mins. Yes the bonus spirit is nice, but in conjuction with Mana Tide, its OP as hell. Mana tide + core = nearly full mana. Next patch, Mana tide is based off the SHAMANS SPIRIT not YOURS.
    5. Yeah Tyrandes is BiS as soon as mana tide gets changed. You'll never get anywhere near as much mana from Tyrandes as you will from a Core proc + mana tide. End of discussion there.
    6. DMC: Tsunami is really good, although I would not choose it over Fall of Mortality. IF fall of mortality has an internal CD 60 seconds (298 mp5? correct me if im wrong) to 90 second (198 mp5? correct me if im wrong again) giving you around a 250 mp5 gain, BUT I HEARD there was a hotfix to the trinket, making it better. I have no idea what the hotfix is so dont quote me on anything I say for that. If you used Core every 2mins when it was off cooldown, it would only equal to 198mp5. Worse then Tyrande, Fall, and DMC: Tsu. So Arguably, those 3 are BiS, IMO once again.
    7. Yes sir. more DL's on the way. can't wait for 10% more mana cost to them
    8. I do agree with this, every piece should have spirit / Haste on it. Heartsong continues to be a superior enchant to what? Hurricane? Yes. Power Torrent? No.

    My opinion on BiS, is My opinion on BiS. Trash it all you want, but it remains to be an opinion. Thats what forums are, a series of responses that are completely opinion based. Just because you think YOUR opinion is correct (and it may very well be) does not give you any sort of right to insult / put down any other player. I find your thread to not only be selfish, but extremely childish.

    And the way you argued about Core of Ripeness thinking that its mana regen won't be effected by the shamans mana tide immediately raises questions in my brain: "Is this guy just good at math and not know how to read patch notes? Or just never figured out 450% of 1926 spirit is 8667 spirit. Next patch, that all goes away. Im sorry If I sound harsh at the end, but your response did annoy me. I apologize if I offend you in anyway.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawn.3x View Post
    Wall of text
    I read it all, and I have two things to say:

    1. You said core of ripeness would be useless, I said it wouldn't. It will still provide large amounts of regen, and you won't notice a huge regen loss from the mana tide change. I know this because I can do math AND read patch notes.
    2. Your opinion on BiS actually does not belong in this thread. If you want to post an opinion on something, you need to post math to back it up. This is a thread that is supposed to objectively give information to players as to a proper way to play their holy paladin, not a thread of "i like doing this."

    I'm not trashing your opinion, everyone has a different playstyle. But we should be using this thread as a source of information or discussion, not announcing our opinions with no mathematical basis.

    Edit: I want to point out as well that you said "Do not use spirit trinkets. They're horrible atm unless spirit gets a buff, you should always be using Intel trinkets" without saying "this is my opinion". That is a false piece of information.

    Double edit: Heartsong is better than Power Torrent, unless you think that 101 hp more healing on most of your spells is worth more than 50-70 mp5, which I certainly don't.
    Last edited by Papapaint; 02-07-2011 at 01:17 PM.


  8. #248
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    They're horrible atm unless spirit gets a buff, you should always be using Intel trinkets, that have some sword of spirit proc. BiS for holy paladins is as follows IMO at least.


    Is what I said. Once again you fail to read the entire paragraph for responding.

    And yes everyone does have a different playstyle, and this is mine, and I'm sharing it with the community. If they use it, and don't like it THATS THEIR CHOICE. I dont know why you're being so negative and childish. Regardless though, you are a Holy Paladin, and I don't like arguing with the same class I play as.

    As for Core of Ripeness, with the current patch its very OP. WHich is why I included it as a BiS. Once the patch comes, I took it out of the top 2, which is understandable. Sure it still gives nice mana back, but in no way competes with Darkmoon card, Fall, Tyrandes. It might even be worse then Tear of Blood (heroic) If you want to do the math, feel free. I base my opinions on combat, by switching my trinkets in and out.

    I tried a pure spirit based trinket, (Jar of Ancient Remedies) and found I was getting more overall mana back from Tear of Blood (heroic). the 30 seconds of the trinket being useless really hurts and that is why I dont include anyform of spirit based trinkets in my top trinkets. Sorry if you don't agree with that.

    More intel = better effect from Plea, replenishment, Innervate, = more mana gain = bigger heals = less mana useage = less need for mp5.

    P.S on a side note, seeing as how when I look at my total healing done for some fights, and check WorldOfLogs, (THIS IS NOT TO SHOW OFF) and I see my total healing in the top 50 in the world, then that's more then enough for me. I'm comfortable with how I heal, and If i'm dishing out enough heals to be on par with the top 50 in the world, that is good enough excuse for me to keep doin what im doing.

    Once again, I truly apologize if I insulted you, I respectfully do not agree with some of the things you say, however, please know that I did take everything you said into account. =). I'm sure you're a very gifted healer, but taking a different route then I am which is by all means acceptable. Best of luck to all of you!

    P.S.S sorry for the wall of text =(

  9. #249
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    If you're going to claim that you've made the top 50 on WoL, you should at least provide a link to back up your claim. Just like you should provide maths to backup your other claims. Healing metres tend to be not as useful as dps metres anyway, so I don't find a top 50 healing to be particularly impressive.

    Opinions are nice, but for a BiS list you absolutely must back it up with the maths to prove your points. You say you gained more mana back from Tear of Blood than the jar, where are you numbers to prove this? Saying "it's your opinion" doesn't really mean much in a game based around numbers.

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  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by yawn.3x View Post
    They're horrible atm unless spirit gets a buff, you should always be using Intel trinkets, that have some sword of spirit proc. BiS for holy paladins is as follows at least.
    Which reads that the BiS part is your opinion, but the spirit part isn't. I have excellent reading comprehension, and I read it as you wrote it. I can't read what you intended to mean.

    Is what I said. Once again you fail to read the entire paragraph for responding.
    Thanks for the ad hominem.

    I dont know why you're being so negative and childish.
    How am I being negative and childish? I've done nothing but present your incorrect assumptions as the falsehoods they are, without resorting to name-calling. I think discussing why certain information is correct or incorrect is a reasonable and necessary form of debate in a thread dedicated to theorycrafting holy paladins.

    As for Core of Ripeness, with the current patch its very OP. WHich is why I included it as a BiS. Once the patch comes, I took it out of the top 2, which is understandable. Sure it still gives nice mana back, but in no way competes with Darkmoon card, Fall, Tyrandes. It might even be worse then Tear of Blood (heroic) If you want to do the math, feel free. I base my opinions on combat, by switching my trinkets in and out.
    It's only OP right now if you're in mana tide group and you're syncing its use with mana tide. Not everyone has that luxury. Even with mana tide, it's still not BiS, as I'm fairly sure Tyrande's and DMC work out to greater mana returns even factoring in mana tide.

    I tried a pure spirit based trinket, (Jar of Ancient Remedies) and found I was getting more overall mana back from Tear of Blood (heroic). the 30 seconds of the trinket being useless really hurts and that is why I dont include anyform of spirit based trinkets in my top trinkets. Sorry if you don't agree with that.
    This is an example where you're just plain wrong. Some math to back it up:

    Jar:
    267.5/0.62 + 515*68.75% = 785.5 Spirit on average, meaning for a typical raid-geared paladin, 464 mp5 with buff usage off cooldown.

    Tear of Blood:
    (8.27+6.89+3.44+1.38)*2.85 = 56 mp5 from the int (this is factoring in Plea, Replenishment, and Divinity glyph). sqrt(5000)*351.5625*.0083625 = 208 mp5 from the spirit proc, meaning this trinket is 263 mp5.

    This means that Jar is--OBJECTIVELY--201 mp5 better. It's not a playstyle choice. If you do think that having your holy light heal for 100 more per cast pushes tear of blood ahead, that's a playstyle choice. But there's literally no way for tear of blood to be greater regen unless you're not casting.

    More intel = better effect from Plea, replenishment, Innervate, = more mana gain
    There's math behind this, and you need to do it instead of just assuming that because someone said you get mana back from int, it's the same or close to the same mana return from spirit (which it isn't)

    bigger heals = less mana useage = less need for mp5.
    Our spell coefficients are not large enough for this to be an actual concern. Larger heals are better, but there's no situation where you will be able to avoid casting two divine lights or two holy lights based on your heal hitting for 200-400 more HP. I'll put this down to a playstyle choice, but if you need to cast two divine lights with jar equipped, you'll need to cast two with Tear equipped. That extra 321 hp on the divine light will not negate the need for a second one.

    P.S on a side note, seeing as how when I look at my total healing done for some fights, and check WorldOfLogs, (THIS IS NOT TO SHOW OFF) and I see my total healing in the top 50 in the world, then that's more then enough for me. I'm comfortable with how I heal, and If i'm dishing out enough heals to be on par with the top 50 in the world, that is good enough excuse for me to keep doin what im doing.
    On a side note, this could mean anything from your raid running with fewer healers, having shorter fight lengths, you sniping heals outside of your assignment, or your DPS taking too much avoidable damage. I'd be interested to see your rankings on world of logs though, as I don't see any members of Pandora on the healing records for any of BWD. Recount and WoL calculate healing done differently, so don't jump to conclusions.

    Once again, I truly apologize if I insulted you, I respectfully do not agree with some of the things you say, however, please know that I did take everything you said into account. =). I'm sure you're a very gifted healer, but taking a different route then I am which is by all means acceptable. Best of luck to all of you!\
    I appreciate the good wishes, but I can't believe you're apologizing for insulting me in a post where you call me incapable of reading comprehension and childish.

    P.S, when I look at my healing total done for some fights, it's actively ranked on World of Logs. I don't need you telling me "you're a very gifted healer" when you're comparing your healing with mine to see if you're doing O.K.

    I'm not writing anything out to insult you. I have yet to insult you. But I repeat myself in saying that a thread dedicated to holy paladin theorycrafting needs to be backed up by math, facts, and logs, not just your opinion.


  11. #251
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    I love the debate. Both of you have your opinions and styles. Some subjective(opinion) and others objective(do the math). Because of this I take in a little here and a little there to make myself a better healer. Keep it up fellas 

  12. #252
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    Light of Dawn no long heals Beaconed targets. This has been hotfixed in, no idea when it goes live or if it is since i havnt been on but this seems like a major nerf, although maybe it was needed.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davih View Post
    Light of Dawn no long heals Beaconed targets. This has been hotfixed in, no idea when it goes live or if it is since i havnt been on but this seems like a major nerf, although maybe it was needed.
    Confirmed from blue post.

    I don't think it was needed at all. Holy Power is now actually fairly weak, considering WoG heals for garbage.


  14. #254
    I was wondering what ya'lls thoughts would be on this. My heal lead read it and said "Lol ur tank healz again". Is it really worth specing the whole way up now? Seems like Tower would still be useful just for the extra holy power for wog but LOD doesn't seem very handy anymore. ;(

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypstix View Post
    I was wondering what ya'lls thoughts would be on this. My heal lead read it and said "Lol ur tank healz again". Is it really worth specing the whole way up now? Seems like Tower would still be useful just for the extra holy power for wog but LOD doesn't seem very handy anymore. ;(
    LoD is garbage now. I'm planning on speccing out of it.

    The frustrating thing is that we aren't even the most efficient tank healers. With druids and disc priests able to handle so much single target damage/healing, this nerf puts us in a really bad place. I'm thinking we need:

    A: LoD buffed to a reasonable healing amount, so we have an actual reason to use it.
    B: Holy Light added back on to ToR.
    C: A non-crappy mastery.

    We already sacrifice tank healing on every 4th GCD with judgement, the last thing we need is another GCD of no tank heals when this move is clearly designed to relegate us to "tank healer." I also don't like this massive gameplay change without any explanation, warning, or discussion.


  16. #256
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    The nerf was reverted, woohoo!


  17. #257
    <3 Yay

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megacode View Post
    I love the debate. Both of you have your opinions and styles. Some subjective(opinion) and others objective(do the math). Because of this I take in a little here and a little there to make myself a better healer. Keep it up fellas 
    Just saw this comment.

    While there is something to be said for individual healing situations and healing habits, gear boils down to purely math. Even if you use more holy lights than divine lights, or never use holy radiance in favor of casting more DLs, some gear will still provide higher regen and healing than other gear. I do think it's important to understand as many viewpoints as possible when it comes to learning your class, role, and spec, but make sure you are making educated decisions, not subjective decisions based on unfounded opinions.

    In the case of the discussion you're referring to, there is nothing about the trinket choices that works out to be "opinion". Some trinkets allow you to do more healing than others. Some trinkets give more regen than others, and that regen can be translated into additional healing. The best trinkets give ample amounts of both, but there are only a few choices like that in the game. For example, Shard of Woe is unquestionably our best in slot. Nothing comes close, despite the trinket having zero int. In a best-case scenario, it works out to over 1,000 mp5, despite having no base stats (and no int). In 30 seconds, you've saved enough mana to cast an additional Divine Light.

    This math needs to be applied to all gear choices--not "what makes my spells heal for more," but "what gear helps me do my job most effectively?" The only subjective concept here is choosing higher throughput (int) over greater regen (spirit), but math can even be applied to this. For example, let's see how much additional healing 321 int (359 ilevel trinkets) actually gives us:

    Coefficients:
    Holy Light = 0.33

    So working with Holy Light:

    321+(321*.05)=337.05+337.05*.05=353.09+353.09*.06= 374 Spellpower from a single 359 ilevel trinket raid buffed


    374*.33=123 additional healing to holy light, so we can figure that it would take 4163/123=33.8 holy lights until you've effectively healed the base value of a single holy light--that is to say, the trinket has allowed you to save one Holy Light cast--roughly 2k mana. My holy light is ~1.7s cast speed without IoL procs, so that's 57 seconds of casting or 175 Mp5 based on mana saved IF you are able to avoid casting one holy light because of the ones you have cast.

    Now, the problem is that this doesn't apply properly. Over a minute of a fight, you're casting several spells with higher mana costs, some with higher coefficients, and it's rare that you'll ever be able to not cast a spell because your int trinket has added on 400 healing to your divine light, especially on heroic mode encounters, where (it seems to me so far) the amount you heal with a single heal is less important than your ability to sustain heavy healing during or after major fight events--AoE, boss damage increases, etc.


  19. #259
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    4/5 Tier?

    Hi Papapaint.

    I was just wondering and would like you input on current 4 piece set bonus for holy paladins. there are fights where I use holy radiance alot...but is it actually worth it? Other pieces that have pretty much same design as tier pieces have haste in it which is what I like. But im just wondering if its worth it to get the set bonus....

    plz help =(

  20. #260
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    It generally comes down to whether or not you want the higher throughput (haste on non-set pieces), or better efficiency(4 piece). There was some math done on EJ, where they looked at the difference in haste between using all non-set pieces, and using the 4pc with the non-set chest(With stats on the tier being reforged into haste). Non-set had something like 345 extra haste, vs the set bonuses, and a bit extra int/crit/spirit. This is the post if you want to have a read.

    In another thread on here that came up, Papapaint actually bought up a good point too, in that is the tier really worth taking tokens from other classes in your raid who may benefit more from using their 4 piece?

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