OK - I'm a new poster on this forum, having used it for ages.
First thing I'd like to say is that yeah, like many I miss Ciderhelm's commentaries - but I also think that the people who have stepped up to do it have done so fantastically. In addition, I didn't see this video until after my first LK kill (server transfer then unexpected invite to step in to main raid group when they were short that week) - and I loved seeing the commentator bouncing around like a madman, having finished his commentary. Our entire guild were shouting in vent and jumping around the LK so much I can honestly say that I didn't remember most of the ending - and it was truly great seeing how much fun it was for you guys as well. Gratz.
Most people seem to be having issues with the raging spirits from transition, and we did it slightly differently to the video - so I thought I'd share. When you have the ghouls (and horror in worst case scenario) kited onto the platform at the start of the transition. the OT takes them off separate to the main raid and ranged nuke them down (we had him to the right, but that's just where he ends up naturally) - and when they are down he gets dispelled.
Everyone else arcs over to the left, keeping a distance from each other, with MT front and centre. When someone gets the spirit on them they run to where the tank is and drop it off, before returning to their position. MT then tanks the add facing it towards the LK, and everyone else simply nukes. Once the OT is free, he comes across and takes the spirits from the MT in preparation for next phase. Ranged switch to orbs when they are in range, and healers keep on top of any damage in the lighting arc, as we're spread apart from tanks and one melee it never hits more than 4 people, normally one or two.
Doing this we would normally enter the next phase with one new add and one about to be burnt down, normally it would die before we even got back into contact with the LK. The OT keeps the spirit just on the edge of the platform - with conal damage going to the left, and melee can burn it down asap from the right. I have seen on occassion the add spin around and one shot my rogue with a cone, and it's possible that there is a solution to this issue but we simply used CR on the rare times this happened.
Hope that helps someone
Ok well it's the Valk and Defile phase that is killing us. Generally we have one Raging Spirit up at the time of Quake so we move in and burn it while the OT has LK, ideally we should be killing that spirit as fast as possible and then stacking in the middle for the Valk, then as soon as the Valk has spawned, spreading out to avoid Defile and nuking the Valk down right after Defile since they both happen within 6 seconds of each other by the looks of it.
The measure of a life is the measure of love and respect. So hard to earn, so easily burned - Neil Peart
We made our first real attempts at this last night and appear to have mastered phase one; but the freaking defile is beating the crap out of us. We had healers and range stack in the middle of the platform to the left of the ice block, this way the Valkry will always fly left as you face the throne with the the LK tanked at the inner circle edge in line with the stairs. However, it seems as soon as defile hits, there's no time for the target to run out of the raid. The defile hits and "boom" it's engulfing the whole area. Should we be spread out?
Mastering the Defile/Valkyr portion was a hump for my team as well.
The only way we got around it was just getting very accustomed to organizing our collapses and expansions. When Defile is coming everyone spreads out and everyone is mindful of the cast (and the tank calls out who's targeted, though DBM will also announce it to you and /say to those around you if you have that option on). When the Valkyr comes down you want everyone fairly close to the middle, but off to one side so you know where the Valkyr will fly (always the shortest path to the edge). Having a stun cycle is very valuable too, if you have multiple people with stuns, otherwise you just need someone sharp on slows and a lot of focus on killing the Valkyr.
It is challenging of course because they are out of phase on timing so they can come very close together. Practice is the only way to get better, that I've seen. Like you noticed, if people aren't really smart with moving quickly away from Defile, it can overwhelm the platform very quickly.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Horacio
Thanks, this is about where we got in the decision making process i.e. expand/collaspe; but it was getting on midnight so didn't try it out. Glad to know we were thinking along the correct lines.
Okay I'd love to get a few tips on the first transition phase. We're about there but it's a little sloppy.
Raid Compositon
Tanks: Main tanking LK = Paladin, Off tanking adds = Death Knight
Healers: Shaman, Paladin & Holy Priest (Disc possibly better, not causing a problem)
Melee: Currently a little fluid because of work & other commitments but pick 2 from rogue, shaman, warrior & another rogue (we don't use 2 rogues at the same time)
Ranged: Warlock, Arcane Mage, Fire Mage (me, recent convert)
Most of our members are ICC25 geared with some heroic pieces thrown in too.
Phase 1: No problem at all. Shaman handles dispels onto the adds tanked by DK perfectly. We usually burn LK to 70% before more than 2 adds are spawned.
Transition:
Our pally tank originally had trouble picking up the Spirits quickly enough before they one shot the range. She now gets the first one pretty well but sometimes, I believe (though I could be wrong) she's getting silenced by Soul Shriek and is sometimes delayed in picking up the second or third. Does that happen to pally tanks?
Our DK is usually twiddling his thumbs at this stage, because he has nothing to do after the horror goes down. Should he getting involved? Is it viable to have the pally pick up the first Spirit and then have the DK pick up the second? One of our raid members said that the DK couldn't have anything on him going into Phase 2 but why would that be? It's the pally who has to go back to tanking the Lich King while we burn down the last Spirit.
(Personally I only switched to fire last night but with good results. During the transition I living bomb all the stuff out on the platform edge (and throw my pyros over there too) and then dps the ice spheres because I have a longer range with fire spells)
yes if your dk OT isn't doing anything he should pick up the spirits instead since he doesn't get silenced from using his abilities, it also depends on who's gonna pick up LK after the transition, whoever is doing the first pickup, should NOT be tanking the adds as they do give a debuff which you'll want the LK tank to be clear of.
Defile & Valks
What we do is we have everyone run back onto the platform with OT pulling any add or adds still up with him to the LEFT of the platform. (facing throne) Rest of group goes to the RIGHT of platform.
Then when add or adds die OT gets with the group on right side of platform.
We then rotate sides for defile 1st defile is dropped along right side, we all then swap sides ... still near the center but left or right side. We then have a sort of pattern going left then right and so on.
As for valk's people just have to be sure to be as close to middle as you can get, what also helps is if you have a warlock for example they can teleport back on if they get grabbed so we always know if our lock gets grabbed ignore and stay on LK. (just a tip has been mentioned but throwing it out again)
Defile you just have to get used to not being near anyone, really thats the key and you have to see that...
1 - its incoming Defile cast
2 - be some distance from others
3 - react right away if its you and head away from people
Where it gets tricky is if valk & defile will hit same time OR very close within seconds. Our raid lead usually says something like "defile get spread out valk right after so soon as defile drops avoid and head to middle"
Communication is critical also but that is obvious. Everyone alone though must be aware though, we practice sometimes where the RL will say nothing at all so we all stay on our toes and don't always rely on him to say whats incoming =)
I would recommend as you get further also save health stones and health pots for transition from 2 to 2.5 when you have to run back to outer edge... that is even more crazy than 1 to 1.5 running out to edge. in phase 2 with defiles and valks it is quite hectic sometimes so if RL or nobody is watching health of LK when he hits 40% he runs and starts his "aoe bundle of love" and that damage hits hard and fast and if you are not ready and too far away .... that is painful.
Defile & valk really is a dance. You have to get comfortable with that dance, duck and dodge. Defile out valks in. Or as we do it left side right side dropping defiles. Once in a while we get chances to drop defile behind the ice block which is awesome thats optimal for us.
Another last tip, and sorry for long post.... anyone healing with 3 healers .... try with 2. I know that sounds crazy, but more dps helps us push phases, kill valks faster etc.... people worry about being defensive but remember offense helps too. Every group is different of course doing with 2 heals helped us get through it much easier than with 3 heals. Granted, as we learn more and someday try heroic mode (haha will be a while) may need 3 heals for that.
We do LK with tree heals (me) and a holy priest. And if anyone wants info on that let me know I imagine it seems unorthodox. But it seems EASY for us the way we do it =)
Last edited by chocritmilk; 06-07-2010 at 08:56 PM.
This may seem like a stupid question but for the final phase with the Vile Spirits and Defile, when you are teleported into Forstmourne, does the spirit inside have an aggro table that will kill you if you pull aggro or is there no threat generation for DPSing him?
The measure of a life is the measure of love and respect. So hard to earn, so easily burned - Neil Peart
Ok my 10 man group have finally started to work on LK and we are having a little bit of problems with the first phase.
Our make up is
Tanks: 2 warriors
DPS: DK, enhance shammy, rogue, warlock, and typically a feral druid or spriest depending on which is on
Heals: disc priest , holy priest, shammy.
We will be going along good one of the warriors will be tanking the adds everything fine and dandy with the plague then between killing the second big add and the third one spawning we will lose the plague. Part of the problem is that I am unable to keep alot of the little adds on me. Even with my vigilance on the other tank to keep my refresh off of CD I will taunt one and lose aggro very quickly. Short of getting another tanking class has any1 had a warrior OT the adds and if so any suggestions/tips/tricks you can give?
Who are you losing aggro to? The DPS doesn't need to be messing with any of the adds you have so if you're losing it to them, then it could be something they are doing. Healers I couldn't be sure about. One issue is, you don't really need that many ghouls on you. How many do you try to have?
Also, is it you losing aggro on ghouls or is it the main tank? Our main tank sometimes had a ghoul peel off him and head towards the healers in range. Although certainly unorthodox, we brought our OT much closer to the gap between range & the MT. Any ghouls that headed towards range were very snappily picked up by the OT this way.
I play the role of the the warrior tank in my heroic 10man, for lichking I tank the adds, the thing i find easiest to do to ensure you always have the adds, is glyph your thunder clap for the extra 2 yard range. Vigilance the tank on the LK, when you transition out of P1 you can move your vigilance. Make sure your rogue is always using ToT on the LK tank to counter your vigilance. Keeping vigi on the LK tank means your taunt is always up, target the ghouls, and taunt them one at a time, once they get within 12-14 yards thunderclap to maintain threat. Doing this, I have no problem picking up the adds and holding them.Ok my 10 man group have finally started to work on LK and we are having a little bit of problems with the first phase
Our make up is
Tanks: 2 warriors
DPS: DK, enhance shammy, rogue, warlock, and typically a feral druid or spriest depending on which is on
Heals: disc priest , holy priest, shammy.
We will be going along good one of the warriors will be tanking the adds everything fine and dandy with the plague then between killing the second big add and the third one spawning we will lose the plague. Part of the problem is that I am unable to keep alot of the little adds on me. Even with my vigilance on the other tank to keep my refresh off of CD I will taunt one and lose aggro very quickly. Short of getting another tanking class has any1 had a warrior OT the adds and if so any suggestions/tips/tricks you can give?
I do not think the spirit inside has any aggro table, I have healed inside and all our dps has dps'd inside and not one time has any of them ever mentioned the spirit switching to them.
I do not think it could, for the simple reason that Terenas living or dying affects the encounter and what happens outside with LK, if you could easily taunt off or draw aggro it would make it too easy.
Just my own thoughts though I could be wrong.
My group is having a bit of trouble on phase 1. Our OT is having trouble picking up the ghouls without taunting lk himself. I've read that some people trix and fan of knives or have a ret pally divince storm then bring them to the ot but we have neither of these classes. We were thinking that he could try and single taunt them all and not worry about it being on c/d for the horror because myself as the hunter could m/d it to him. We didn't get a chance to attempt it this way but do you guys think it will work? Also I don't think I mentioned our ot is a pally. our raid comp is as follows.
Prot Warrior
Prot Pally
MM Hunter
Demo Warlock
Unholy DK
Fury Warrior
Ele Sham (Thinking of replacing this person with an arcane mage)
Resto Druid (Replacing this guy with a Resto Sham)
Resto Druid
Holy Pally
Hello, first of all our setup is; 2 Protection Warriors, 1 Frost DK, 1 Combat Rogue, 1 Arcane Mage, 1 Survival Hunter, 1 Balanced Druid, 1 Restoration Druid, 1 Discipline Priest & 1 Restoration Shaman
We got problems at phase 2 at the Defile, it's like when we're attacking the Val'kyr with 2 melee + off tank one of us gets the debuff and it kills us, and always once in that phase it happens and we can't get through it.. any sugegstions?
The solution is fairly simple but you have to trust that it'll work. Those melee characters cannot stack on the flying Valk when defile comes out. Like you said, it will wipe you unless you're super lucky. Our complement of characters shifts around but we've done it with two melee as well.
If the Valk comes out first, they run in, stun it throw some dps on it and then they run away. You don't want defile under the valk. Even if the range kill it, she'll drop the guy being carried in defile. When defile comes out under someone, those melee can run back in. Your mage, rogue, hunter and DK all have access to slows and stuns. If your dps are geared enough for the fight, taking the Valks down shouldn't be a problem, even if the melee can't be there all the time. As a mage, I save my cooldowns for the last raging spirits in transition and tricky Valks.
I always OT this as a paladin, To keep the plague going, you do not have to taunt all of them, I always keep only 2 or 3 with me at once and let the LK tank keep the rest.
Our hunters MD the shamblers to me (i also keep avengers shield ready for applying ranged threat asap)
Tanking a smaller amount at once ensures the plague will be stacking on the shamblers more effectively as opposed to hopping through each ghoul and wasting time. The shamblers will still be killed off this way by the time the first transition starts (depending on raid dps ofcourse)
the remaining ghouls are quickly killed by aoe / disease as the rest of the raid deals with the first raging
Slid what you could do is get your 2 melee + the tank to stay spread apart, bosses have good size hit boxes anyway get 1 melee on 1 foot and 1 melee on other but step back a little but still in range then tank is in front of LK. Almost like a triangle around LK.
That way any of you get defile you move outward away from the other 2 melee.
At least that is just an idea.
Regarding Defile.
You have approximately 5 seconds to react to defile. DBM is very slow at marking the defile target, the LK targets the defile target for 5 seconds as he casts it, have the MT call out who the defile target it (assuming you have target of target displayed) and have them move away quickly.
3.5% we got to within 3.5% of downing him last night. I was running around hitting the Vile Spirits with Howling Blast and Blood Boiling and got sucked into Frostmourne where I proceeded to not be able to down the spirit in time despite popping Army. As I watched, the LK was at 17%, the MT went down to a Soul Reaper, the range were running around and dotting the LK, but one by one they all fell - 3.5% (well 13.5%).
We decided our range was dealing with the Vile Spirits just fine while I was in Frostmorune, so we're going to just tank the LK, taunt on Soul Reaper and keep the threat of the tanks 1 and 2. Tomorrow hopefully we get it.
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