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Thread: Expertise and Hit. Do you care?

  1. #1

    Expertise and Hit. Do you care?

    Hey guys,

    As tanks we are always trying to get more stam/armor/avoidance. But what about hit+expertise? these obviously help with threat as well as tank dps and tank mitigation(through less parry hasted attacks.)Do you make it a point to get it to a desirable level?For the past month I have created a pretty strong threat set consisting of 265 hit rating and 56 expertise, it has def increased my tps and dps but my avoidance went down minimally. So my question is, Expertise and Hit. Do you care?

  2. #2
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    I try to maintain 26 Expertise Skill. Right now that means using x2 Guardian Dreadstones in my gear and eating the Expertise Food, which puts me right at 26 Skill. I made a list of the available expertise gear here: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...r-List-for-3-3

    Though Hit is nice for threat it's not a primary concern. I just take what I get in the form of equips on gear though the natural course of upgrades. There happens to be a crap ton of it on most ICC gear.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  3. #3
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    My answer is: no, I don't care.

    Threat is something that is finitely useful. Once I can outthreat all my DPS, I no longer care about hit or expertise (expertise provides some effective avoidance too, but it's not as good for that as dodge is). Currently I'm at around 4% hit and 30 expertise, but that's just what's on my gear, I haven't sockets for anything.

  4. #4
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    Yes, but only because the RNG hates my existence.

    If my hit is the same as the other tank, I'm going to be the one to have a taunt miss and have to figure out a way to get threat on fights that need to be taunted back and forth.

  5. #5
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    As long as I'm around 20 expertise, I don't care. Warriors pull more threat than any class if played properly, which I do, so I don't care about hit/expertise once I've out TPS'd my DPS. It's good to have them, don't get me wrong, but the enchants/gems/etc. can be better used increasing stam (or armor, whatever floats your boat).

  6. #6
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    I've got a tick that prevents me from dropping below 26 exp. Hit I could do without.

  7. #7
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    Neither is important in ICC. You're more responsible for staying alive, and if you need gear to hold threat or think you do at this point, you're mistaken and should work on your ability usage instead. Gemming and enchanting for threat is a bad idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Neither is important in ICC. You're more responsible for staying alive, and if you need gear to hold threat or think you do at this point, you're mistaken and should work on your ability usage instead. Gemming and enchanting for threat is a bad idea.
    I think this is a somewhat closed-minded approach to the concept. Considering there's plenty of times in ICC where initial threat is important--Marrowgar, Deathwhisper adds, Dreamwalker adds, and even the simple tank switch on fester--it's a stretch to say that threat gems are "pointless," particularly when expertise/stam gems are still effective at reducing incoming spike damage.

  9. #9
    put it this way: you cant generate threat if ur dead.

    a tank death generally leads to a wipe, no amount of threat will prevent said wipe if u die.

    having that +500k threat lead on ur dps is nice, but its pointless. all the threat u realistically need to be doing is your highest dps threat +1. its not to say that hit/exp are pointless for tanks, i personally wont drop below 26exp buffed, the same as Proletaria mentioned, but if u need a taunt to land, glyph for it.

    if u having threat issues at all with ur dps, make sure ur getting tricks/MDs, and that higher dps are utilizing their threat reduction abilities. its not just the tanks that need to manage their aggro, dps need to manage theirs as well.

    Vin
    http://www.zetbit.com/sig-1341818.jpg
    " 'Thin' is a relative term..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by almightypancake View Post
    I think this is a somewhat closed-minded approach to the concept. Considering there's plenty of times in ICC where initial threat is important--Marrowgar, Deathwhisper adds, Dreamwalker adds, and even the simple tank switch on fester--it's a stretch to say that threat gems are "pointless," particularly when expertise/stam gems are still effective at reducing incoming spike damage.
    Funny, I'd say the same about your response to it. Initial threat: Bloodrage, Charge, Queue Heroic Strike on the way in, hit SS as soon as you get there and spam Devastate. What is hard about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    Funny, I'd say the same about your response to it. Initial threat: Bloodrage, Charge, Queue Heroic Strike on the way in, hit SS as soon as you get there and spam Devastate. What is hard about it?
    And when those are on cooldown?

    I'm not saying that I'm slotting full expertise and enchanting full hit, but there are plenty of times when it sure the hell helps to have 26 expertise. I like knowing that if I see an abomination coming in while charge/intercept/taunt/heroic throw are on cooldown while I'm tanking Dreamwalker adds (which happens frequently solo-tanking 10m, and even towards the end of 25m), I can land a devastate from behind and pick it up with 100% certainty.

    You seem to think that there's a significant survival difference between using a 10 expertise/15 stam gem in two or three slots and having a 10 dodge rating/15 stam gem in each of those, which simply isn't true. If you need to min-max for survival (which is the case on plenty of bosses, which is why most tanks carry around alternate gearsets), then it's as easy as swapping a few pieces out. I'm saying that there is a value to both sides of the argument, especially after the math on the effectiveness of expertise against parry-haste bosses. I don't see that as being particularly closed minded.

  12. #12
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    so parry hasting is turned off all bosses in icc ???? because saying you don't take expertise because u want to survive is strange if it isn't turned off, id say not getting parry hasted is pretty damn good survival ... just remember expertise is almost as affective as dodge for some tanks.
    Last edited by Sirloinsteak; 02-10-2010 at 12:37 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirloinsteak View Post
    so parry hasting is turned off all bosses in icc ???? because saying you don't take expertise because u want to survive is strange if it isn't turned off, id say not getting parry hasted is pretty damn good survival ... just remember expertise is almost as affective as dodge for some tanks.
    Parry hasting is not disabled for all encounters. We were having troubles with our progression on Festergut a while back since our Blood DK tank was simply getting flattened at 3 inhales. Turns out parry-hasting is enabled on that encounter (dispite what Blizzard says about disabling it on fights where it could kill tanks...), and since that tank only has about 10 expertise, he was getting hit more than usual.

    Expertise is still a valuable stat, but I don't think I'd go so far out of my way to specifically gem for it (unless I had zero on my gear).

  14. #14
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    Yes expertise is a valuable stat.

    No I don't enchant or gem for it. When I have the choice between pieces of equal value with say dodge OR expertise I will always pick the expertise one. I gem for Stamina in all slots but one, which is a exp / stam gem.

    If you are having trouble with threat, it's your rotation, spec, or glyphs; not because your expertise is low. Will increasing your expertise increase your TPS? Yes, it will; but not to the same degree as swapping a glyph, or dumping a few more heroic strikes. Further if your doing your rotation right you should be able to produce more then enough threat even with sub-optimal expertise ratings.


    Parry-gib is still active on most ICC bosses: but will it kill the the Tank? In most cases, no. Parry Gib was most dangerous in TBC, when there were still crushing blows, and bosses still swung slowly. Parry haste was a concern because you could haste an attack enough that your shield block wouldn't be back up in time, thus you could eat a crushing blow and receive massive burst. With the "removal" of Crushing blows in WotLK parry haste became much less dangerous; but it still had the potential to kill you if the boss swung really slow, like say Igniss. Slow swinging bosses burst much harder due to parry haste then do quick swinging bosses. In ICC most bosses swing faster then 2s, since they swing so fast already a hasted attack isn't a huge increase in burst damage. Also more attacks are parried and thus hasted, so the damage incoming is not a doesn't have the same degree of burst, and easier to heal through. Parry haste has become much less of a concern. For warriors expertise is still worth about 45-50% as much as dodge at reducing damage taken, and it reduces the chances of big melee burst.... but really, its the special abilities that kill me these days. I haven't had a back to back to back melee kill me in a long time.

    Be a Champion, not a hero.
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  15. #15
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    I care a great deal about this, but i'm abit special i guess in that i usually value hit > Expertise solely because of Taunt. I can't even begin to count the times i've had a taunt missed back on Iron Council hardmode or Algalon which resulted in a wipe. So once spellhit is on 8% i'm trying to maintain the 6% expertise.

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