+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: devesate fast or slow doesn't matter

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3

    devesate fast or slow doesn't matter

    there are alot of devesate vs. revenge threads upp atm and useing slow vs fast weps now aswell

    but isn't devesate hit by thenormalization like mortal strike so a slow or fast wep doesn't matter for the final dmg it does only the dps of the wep makes an impact

    wowwiki counts it as a ability hit by normalization
    http://www.wowwiki.com/Normalization

    so when ppl say that a slow weapon is better for devesate they are wrong

    i hope this will finaly end the slow vs fast wep for threat topic

    conclusion: the faster your tank wep is the better for your heroic strike and your devesate dmg won't change

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Normalization applies to the contribution from attack power, not to the base weapon damage. While it does not make a massive difference, there is a distinct difference in base damage of a 1.5s weapon vs. a 2.6s weapon of the same DPS.

    Some attacks, such as Hammer of the Righteous for Paladins, are based on weapon DPS and thus completely normalized--Devastate, however, has the same mechanics as any instant weapon attack.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    3
    thx dude and your rawr protwarr is an awsome tool

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    122
    In simple terms - no, slow weapons hit noticeably harder than fast ones with devastate.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    That Place Above the USA
    Posts
    2,282
    Quote Originally Posted by Agmar View Post
    In simple terms - no, slow weapons hit noticeably harder than fast ones with devastate.
    While this is true, in the long run the DPS should be evened out since you are hitting more frequently, if lightly, with a faster weapon.

    However, since each devastate has a static innate threat component, a fast weapon will generate more threat and faster.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    37
    fast weapon does not mean fast devastates, its an instant ability thats part of your GCD "rotation" meaning the speed of your weapon has no effect on how often you devastate.

    the argument is if the extra damage on devastate using a slow weapon is worth the lost heroic strikes, which are on next swing attacks. before it was close, now math leads me to believe that the buff to devastate + the glyph make it worth it to use a slow weapon.

    + right now its either use bloodvenom blade or heroic blood and glory for me......clear choice

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    The balancing decision still is and has always been HS usage vs Devstate value.

    A slow weapon will hit harder with Devastate but you will have fewer opportunities for HS. So the question is, will you lose more damage in less frequent Heroic Strikes than you will gain in Devastate damage.

    There are two other issues that you can bring into the equation:
    1.) Rage gains. Slow weapons *can* contribute to void spots in rage gain from zero or low values while you're waiting for swings. This is rarely a concern in raids and is more of interest to 5-mans/heroics.
    2.) There are no high level slow tanking weapons. If you are interested in getting survival values from your weapon the point is moot. You can get a nice one hand with a slow speed and no Str and less Stam to play with as a threat weapon if you want, but you lose that value from your tank stats on the tank weapon. Consider that against what you might gain in threat from the Dev vs HS balance you're figuring out above.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    There are two other issues that you can bring into the equation:
    1.) Rage gains. Slow weapons *can* contribute to void spots in rage gain from zero or low values while you're waiting for swings. This is rarely a concern in raids and is more of interest to 5-mans/heroics.
    2.) There are no high level slow tanking weapons. If you are interested in getting survival values from your weapon the point is moot. You can get a nice one hand with a slow speed and no Str and less Stam to play with as a threat weapon if you want, but you lose that value from your tank stats on the tank weapon. Consider that against what you might gain in threat from the Dev vs HS balance you're figuring out above.
    1) For me, the difference in rage expenditure is VERY noticeable. I find that when I was using a 1.6 speed weapon, it was very easy to rage starve myself by not pulling off the gas fast enough on boss casts/avoidance streaks/etc. whereas with a 2.6, rage is much more stable.

    2) Very true, however, it should be noted that if you value armor over avoidance (which I do), and if you have plenty of defense/avoidance from the rest of your gear (check as well), the good 2.6 speed one handers all of lots of agility on them, and are not dramatically lower in stamina. You give up some, yes, but not a huge amount.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    I disagree on your first point on the grounds that it is a player active skill use aspect.

    What I was talking about was rage generation from auto-swings, meaning that with a slow swing speed the rage ticks come in with a fair amount of space between (though they shouldn't be particularly different provided same level weapons).

    Rage dumping on the other hand is the entirely in the hands of the player. If you're running out of rage from using HS too much the answer is not getting a slower weapon, it is improving your skill at when and how much you use HS.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    467
    also faster devastate = faster sunder stacking = more overall raid dps on boss.
    Belgariad: EU : Lightnings Blade. Once a Tank. Always a Tank.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by robbon View Post
    also faster devastate = faster sunder stacking = more overall raid dps on boss.
    I think you missed the corrections in this thread, Robbon. A fast weapon does not increase the speed of devastate. A slow weapon has a a greater ranged of damage, and devastate is derives it's damage from that weapon damage. Conversely, a fast weapon has a smaller range of damage and makes the devastate weaker than a slow weapon.

    Reread Satorri's post above to find out what this has on your rotation.
    "I'm a rage-a-holic! I'm addicted to rageahol!" -Homer Simpson

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    78
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearghus View Post
    I think you missed the corrections in this thread, Robbon. A fast weapon does not increase the speed of devastate. A slow weapon has a a greater ranged of damage, and devastate is derives it's damage from that weapon damage. Conversely, a fast weapon has a smaller range of damage and makes the devastate weaker than a slow weapon.

    Reread Satorri's post above to find out what this has on your rotation.
    Not sure, but maybe he meant that a faster weapon is generating rage faster and thus you may be able to apply devastate earlier in the fight. I would think though, that this would only have a marginal effect if at all.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4
    well if devastate hits for weapon damage wouldn't a slower and harder hitting weapon be great in this case? the only argument here now is whether the harder hitting devastate with make up for the decreased amount of heroic strikes being put out.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrytusk View Post
    well if devastate hits for weapon damage wouldn't a slower and harder hitting weapon be great in this case? the only argument here now is whether the harder hitting devastate with make up for the decreased amount of heroic strikes being put out.
    Short answer is, no it doesn't. A fast weapon is still superior for HS spam threat gen. However, in certain situations it does make more sense to equip a slower weapon, such as when spamming HS isn't really feasible (e.g. the Deva/SS rotation when off-tanking).

    A different example could be when tanking Festergut, after switching out and having 80-90% increased damage, throwing on a slow 1H weapon and switching to Arms/Fury stance really helps you pump out some DPS (after getting a Salv of course).

    Also worth noting is that due to PPM mechanics, equipping a slower weapon seems to have a tendancy to proc SnB "more" often.

    FYI, a slow weapon while tanking Sindragosa really makes a noticeable difference in how often the melee debuff is stacked on you. Since having a fast weapon stacks the debuff so fast that you're constantly having to stop attacking, I found this made a huge difference.

    So really, I think it comes down to carrying both a fast tanking weapon and a slow DPS weapon, and using one or the other based on the situation.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    4
    Yeah im gonna have to go with you on this one, even rawr shows that a faster weapon generates more rage than a slower one.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    533
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrytusk View Post
    Yeah im gonna have to go with you on this one, even rawr shows that a faster weapon generates more rage than a slower one.
    Which makes no damn difference when taking a single hit fills your ragebar to full.
    Crommi | Archaic Order | Lightning's Blade EU

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    To be clear, a faster weapon doesn't generate *more* rage, it just generates it in smaller more frequent steps (from auto-swing damage which isn't insignificant). This won't matter in high incoming damage situations as much, it will often only be an early fight issue, and like I said you'll usually see it most in 5-mans.

    If you want to discuss the cold clean math, you'll need to grab recorded threat values per hit from HS and Dev to use. If anyone wants to supply there own we can use that and do the math out squarely. Also of interest would be the proportions of Dev and HS use that you actually get, i.e. how many melee swings get HS bumps, and how many GCDs per time increment are taken for Dev.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts