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Thread: Tanking icc

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steakdinner View Post
    The threat increase from the agility is so minimal with gemming, any threat gained from agility will come from the numbers on your gear mainly. Savage defense absorbs on bosses aren't significant enough to block a big hit from a boss, since it's only 25% of your AP. Bears will have a high enough crit from gear and raid buffs to where it will constantly proc, but its mitigation isn't enough for you to go out of your way to get more crit or a slight ap increase from agi gemming. But your main point you bring up is "whose fault is it I'm dying?" The rule of thumb I use here is this: if a tank dies - healer's fault, if the healer dies - tank's fault, if the dps dies - it's their own damn fault. Always assume murphy's law when raiding though, your healer may slip up on a heal or you may not avoid a hit; your solution has to be: what can I do to provide a cushion in those scenarios. This is where stamina comes in, it's not lack of faith in healers, more of preparing for the worst and having faith in myself as a tank to overcome oops moments.
    FYI... steakdinner is the first to get the question... I knew the answer in the first place... the question spawned from everyone's inexplicable unwillingness to trust their healers... in the modern day wow we all like to trust ourselves as "elitists" yet when it boils down to it we are not being elite at what we do at all. We are trying to avoid a situation that could have been avoided if the "raid" did their job... That is where the Elite Comes into play.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  2. #42
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    [Now, you are arguing for agility and agility is good up to a point, but you have to remember that there IS an armor cap of 75% damage reduction and once you hit it that agility you have is quite thoroughly useless. Bear tanks can hit this cap very easily (especially with Kings giving you a 10% boost to your Agi values), which is why they advocate stam stacking.
    No, this is 100% incorrect. Please don't say these sorts of things. Bears are nowhere near the armor cap.

    Oh then there is the the fact that agil increases my THREAT which would fix your problem of generating it fell hoof.... the threat is increased beacause of my increased crit...I am begining to notice that i perhaps should have started this forum by mentioning that I am a 4 yr bear druid vett... I am not new to this I merely was curious as to what peoples reasoning was behind stamina.
    Playing your class for four years doesn't mean anything if you don't know what you're doing for four years. It just means that you didn't do a good job for a long time.

    My threat is perfectly fine. It's a common concern of many bears that their threat is low. But okay, let's go with that: let's say how good crit is for threat, and actually use math. From my blogpost, the average TPS of various stats:
    At 500 arpen, here are the values of stats per 100 rating (assuming 100 hit and 132 expertise):

    hit: 185 TPS
    expertise: 168
    arpen: 129
    haste: 86
    AP: 76
    crit: 69
    Now, here's the thing to note: this is crit rating, not agility. Agility provides a bit more than half the crit that crit rating does (45.9 for crit rating, 83.3 for agi). What this means is that agility provides per 100 points of agility around 38 TPS, making it 6 TIMES worse than expertise for threat assuming you're not expertise-capped.

    So yes, agility helps a bit. But you need 120 agi worth of gems to make the same value of threat that 20 expertise rating gives you, about.

    As to the rest - the fact is that optimal gearing seldom matters as a tank, and optimal gemming and enchanting even less. It matters on the harder content sometimes (if the fight is tank stressing) but there simply aren't that many fights that are. The fights everyone but you, Cellinheim, are talking about are the ones where if you don't have a certain amount of health you can easily die in 1.5 seconds or less. And while agility makes it less likely that this occurs, it doesn't solve for the case where you simply die.

    Good luck with your tanking.

  3. #43
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    I am going to start this post off by saying ... felhoof, I never argued with expertise in the slightest. So for the most part you cannot even begin to compare your current argument to the one we were having in the first place.

    FYI I also posted this same topic of discussion in the healing forum of this site... Just figured you may like to see what they had to say about festergut and rotface...

    [QUOTEKnThrak
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    I don't know. I can heal either, it just changes what spells I use.
    I admit I slightly prefer Avoidance-focus for bosses like Festergut where they hit so fast that the major damage comes from the insane hitspeed coupled with the nontrivial damage per hit. But due to there being just so many blows, Avoidance evens out even over 3-4 seconds of combat, making it a very reliable damage-reduction.

    Likewise for Rotface I prefer Avoidance because while I can keep the tank up while running my ooze with instant-heal if necessary, with some avoidance-luck I can save myself any shitty moment and run back into position before healing again - and he hits weak enough that I can judge that while running without losing the tank.
    (similar thing goes for the tank(s) on BPC)


    Overall though, I just prefer a healthy mix. I hate tanks which have sub-20% Parry+Dodge in ICC because they're insane manasponges and our Resto Druids are lately having mana issues meaning I don't get free Innervates anymore - and ask AbA, I'm known for soaking those Ninnervates like mad. :P
    Some Avoidance, rest health. That's a good balance. For some fights extra avoidance is very handy, for some extra EH is very handy.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)[/QUOTE]
    Please take note of the initial preference to the avoidance... BTW nothing was mentioned about myself being a bear tank.

    time987
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    from a healing stand point it really depen on the fight. i can heal eather way but over all a little more dodge i say is better because if you can avoid a hit so much the better back in bc stam was the way to go but in icc i would say that trying to make up some of the dodge debuff would be help full for most healers. stam is good but a little more health wont make that much diffent
    ... oh, and felhoof, as for my being a four year vett not meaning I could have or have not been anygood at my class... I couldn't agree more. However, I Do choose to take the time to point out that I seldom have any complaints at all from anyone about my capability as a tank. The only issue I have ever had was getting into a pug. Which, btw I have had many choose to accept me as an offtank and begin to bring me back as a main tank time and time again there after... The initial question was posed because of the curious notion I happened to notice that took place after ICC opened... It was if all tanks.. let alone bears... lost confidence all around together... Granted, we are dealing with RNG and RNG is random.. So to put it bluntly, mess happens... Keep in mind that mess happens reguardless of what you are wearing when or where it happens .
    Last edited by Cellinheim; 02-10-2010 at 03:08 PM.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  4. #44
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    Okay.

    You do understand that no matter how much agility you get you will NEVER EVER get as much avoidance as a similarly geared warrior, paladin or DK who is going for stamina, right?

    So that healer prefers avoidance-focused tanks on Festergut - which you will always lose at. Always.

    That healer that hates sub 20% parry/dodge tanks hates undergeared tanks. If you have even remotely decent gear - like ToC 10 level gear - you will have 30% or more avoidance. So yes, I'm sure he hates those mythical tanks. I do too. They suck. Riding around on their mythical unicorns.

    As to losing all confidence, I don't know where to begin. Literally; I barely understand your english. Gearing for stamina is in general gearing for the unknown. It might not be optimal for a fight (and point of fact there are several fights that it isn't optimal for) but it's very rare that if it isn't optimal, it's at least good enough and gives you an advantage that other gearing strategies don't. This is especially true for being a bear given the huge advantage you get from it.

    Case in point are the world kills of LK. A shockingly large chunk of them had bear tanks as one of the two main ones. That doesn't necessarily mean anything, but what is curious is that all of those tanks gear for stamina. Do you know why? LK's actually a good fight for avoidance based on melee damage; he hits very fast and gets multiple buffs that only increase that speed, and as pointed out above when you can start averaging avoidance due to faster attacks it becomes more statistically useful as a reduction of damage.

    The problem is that the LK doesn't do physical damage only, and the most dangerous parts of the fight have to do with magical damage. Which avoidance, armor and threat cannot help.

    Stamina, while flawed in many significant ways, is the only thing that can deal with every single kind of attack in some kind of positive way*.

    Like I said - there aren't that many challenging fights. I'm glad you've had success with gearing for dodge. But chances are that you simply haven't been pushed from a gear perspective. Chances are that the stuff you've done has been easy or overgeared, or you've simply been carried. That's great, and good luck with that. But when someone asks what's better - avoidance isn't better in most of the cases. And it's certainly not because magic attacks can be avoided or because it provides threat or armor.

    *the significant point would be heroic Anub'arak, where more health is actually a detriment to winning. But there the answer is resistance gear and armor, not avoidance, since you're stunned during the most dangerous part and avoidance does nothing when stunned

  5. #45
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    I do apologize for the rest of that sentence being left out... It should have said... "lost all confidence in their healers."
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  6. #46
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    I think a mod needs to step in because this thread is derailing itself.

    Cellinheim. The guys are not arguing - because there is nothing to argue, they are just stating, stamina is the best stat to stack for survivability. Expertise until cap is the best for threat, followed by hit and then(from what I have read) haste (more Mauls I suppose).

    Your argument over who's fault it is when you die, is purely opinionated but the above is indisputable. I see many bears gearing avoidance, and while it is certainly fine for Naxx, you are underplaying your potential in uld, toc, togc and icc. Avoidance is RNG, and Bears are NOT avoidance tanks. Your avoidance (through dodge) should stand at 45% ish without procs from mongoose/idol for ICC, and 45-50k hp unbuffed (depending on 10 vs 25).

    From what I have acquired in knowledge from this thread and from what I have geared myself for spamming quick heroics I am able to recognise - Gem/enchant for stamina. Expertise caps at ~56 (I forget the actual number) and is the best threat stat, so focus it. Hit is also important. Followed by haste. Bears do not go for avoidance because it is RNG, and hangs at... probably 60% max (before the debuff).. and probably with 38k hp because of gemming agility/dodge. 40% of those hits are gonna hit, and sometimes hit twice, sometimes three times. When that happens you're dead. This is why you do not do it, you're playing russian roulette with RNG jesus and you will lose. Stamina is not RNG, it is always there. Off pieces (necks/rings/trinks) are nice for extra armor, but stamina is the most important stat. Bears are favoured of all tanks because of their high hp - they get hit a lot, but healers find their incoming damage PREDICTABLE (not like RNG avoidance tanks). Because it is predictable, they can pre cast, and can play with a larger hp pool.

    Even other tanks are stacking stamina and - why is this? Because their avoidance stats are not high enough for them to stack avoidance, when it reaches a point where it is, they will stack it. Bears will not. (this is also information I have acquired from the posters here).

    To your other question... who's fault it is can be hard to find out often, but you can in many cases see who the weakest link is. A bad tank is often easy to recognise, as is a poor dps or healer, and disputing this seems pointless also.

    This whole thread just seems to be a flame bait but I think the original question has been answered nonetheless, and while I do not wish to point it out - Cellin you are either being ignorant or argumentative

  7. #47
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    Dead horse beaten yet again.

    Thread closed.

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