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Thread: Tanking icc

  1. #21
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    On this note, how would i increase my health pool seeing as everyone is telling me to stack stam now. I mean the agil is king, no? I have the hybrid gems attached. It just seems that nothing is enough for anyone...lol, i also understand that this is always going to be an issue with other people telling others what they should do.
    You should listen to them; agility is not king, and stamina is better - especially for a bear. Honestly whether or not you gem stam and get a high health is not as important here; what it's telling pugs is that you don't know how to best gear up your tank for most instances.

  2. #22
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    See that is the same thing i Have been doing the entire time. I have just gotten to a point, where i come seeking advice because it appears that blizz has this uncanny way of dropping a patch that changes the rules for "bears" as we know it lol. With this, I am having an issue getting into Ice crown and toc 25 outside of my guilded runs. In my guilded runs there does not appear to be a problem mostly i gem with the hybrid gems that drop both agil and stam, because this is the option i have chosen due to them being my "core" stats. On a slot where i need yellow gem I generally choose Forceful eye of zul, which opens up a completely different argument within itself, lol. The reason for this is that they give the stam bonus themselves with the added haste. The haste IMO increases my control better from the crit vs. haste on bears argument, of course i side with hast. You think i'd be used to this by now, seeing as ive been playing since the original naxx dropped, lol.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    You should listen to them; agility is not king, and stamina is better - especially for a bear. Honestly whether or not you gem stam and get a high health is not as important here; what it's telling pugs is that you don't know how to best gear up your tank for most instances.
    The problem here is that this comment within itself is the spawn of such debate. If one takes note at what others within this very same forum have stated, then you notice that I am yet again torn between two decisions that I came here with. The only difference I am seeing is the Gemming for expertise as stated by wiimote." If you decide to gem for a bonus, go for expertise and agility (until expertise is maxed). Ignore any bonus that isn't stam, though."
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Oh, I see. You are talking about the tanking dilemma that we are all faced with (ie. need 40K unbuffed to run Naxx 10, or need 5800 GS to run TotC 10, etc.).

    I really don't think we can fix that sadly, but I would pretty much stack stamina if at all possible without losing other necessary stats though. You really have to try to use your best judgment with it and do what you can with what you have available to you.
    I do not know which I hate more, The option blizz gave for us to check each others gear and skill trees, or the gs addon that has been created. I mean granted they both have their own advantages. The gs addon and wow heros are both fully utilized by myself. However this does not prevent me from pulling someone in to a raid that appears to be incapable based on their gs. A toon a came across the other day, "hawthawthawt" resto druid, Ungodly healz, out healing pally's and holy priests in 5k gs. The issue... he was still wearing greens and blues, his gs, barely even 4k if that. To answer your nxt question, the other healz were doing their job well too.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  5. #25
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    Originally Posted by felhoof
    "You should listen to them; agility is not king, and stamina is better - especially for a bear. Honestly whether or not you gem stam and get a high health is not as important here; what it's telling pugs is that you don't know how to best gear up your tank for most instances."

    This also sends the flag up that I should conform? We used to play druids because of our diversity within the capabilities of each of our forms. Sadly, as of late we have become sheep, just like the rest of the crowd. "YOU NEED THESE STATS" What a pug tells me when i hear that is that they have no clue as to what a bear tank is in the first place. This comment that you have made is the same reason I have come here in the first place.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellinheim View Post
    The problem here is that this comment within itself is the spawn of such debate. If one takes note at what others within this very same forum have stated, then you notice that I am yet again torn between two decisions that I came here with. The only difference I am seeing is the Gemming for expertise as stated by wiimote." If you decide to gem for a bonus, go for expertise and agility (until expertise is maxed). Ignore any bonus that isn't stam, though."
    Expertise is decent because it increases your threat, and your survivability to an extent. Getting expertise for the survivability is sort of like gearing for avoidance, but in reverse. I'm sure you've heard of parry haste. The catch is, not every boss is affected by parry hasting.

    As a bear tank, you've probably specced into primal precision (and if you haven't you should). That gives you 2.5% less chance to be dodged or parried, leaving 5.5% left for the cap (181 expertise rating). Expertise is not something that's absolutely needed, but it's a very nice stat for tanks to improve TPS since it also increases your survivability in certain fights.

    Like I said, agility or expertise for a socket bonus if you're going for it. Both stats are beneficial for threat and survival.

  7. #27
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    Pugs usually do have no clue whatsoever. But there are enough articles here and posts right in this threat explaining to you why stam is the option you should be going for.

    Our main healer (the one who's been healing me for the last 3 years and always prefers healing me over any other tank we've had) asked me to go dps on festergut because our bear tank was more probable to survive Festergut on 3 inhales. i outgear that bear and i'm fully stacked on armor & stam. But bears have huge hp pools & armor relative to a warrior. But nobody cares about my damage reduction through shieldblock. Why? it's not up 100%. It's not guaranteed, therefore "nonexistant" from the eyes of a healer.

    The hard fights are always those where you have trouble keeping up a tank for whatever reason (boss hits hard, healers have to pause healing you, etc). If you're not equipped to handle that scenario, you're not doing a good job. As for the other fights that dont have tank hp zigzagging all over the place? nobody cares about those

  8. #28
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    Hmm i just came across this post in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend
    Well anyway it only hit me for 42K and I still had enough to survive a melee swing afterward even if I had not been healed.
    Can you survive this?

  9. #29
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    The Pugs happen to be right and you happen to be wrong. Now, they might not understand why they're right, but you should. Instead, you're deciding on how to equip your bear based on some notion that you need to have balanced core stats and don't want to conform and want to be flexible.

    There's no gain in agility right now for bears. None at all. The best case scenario is that you'll have slightly less avoidance than a similarly geared tank of another class but with less health, about the same armor, worse cooldowns and worse threat. That's what you're going for it.

    If you choose to go with hybrid gems, that means you're choosing to partially accentuate your greatest advantage as a bear (health) while gimping yourself. You'll end up with worse avodiance than other tanks that are similarly geared and similar health.

    How does this help you, exactly?

    The problem here is that this comment within itself is the spawn of such debate. If one takes note at what others within this very same forum have stated, then you notice that I am yet again torn between two decisions that I came here with. The only difference I am seeing is the Gemming for expertise as stated by wiimote." If you decide to gem for a bonus, go for expertise and agility (until expertise is maxed). Ignore any bonus that isn't stam, though."
    I'll put it another way.

    If you're dying: you should get more stam.
    If you're having problems with threat: you should get more expertise.
    If you're not really having any issues at all: get agility.

    This also sends the flag up that I should conform? We used to play druids because of our diversity within the capabilities of each of our forms. Sadly, as of late we have become sheep, just like the rest of the crowd. "YOU NEED THESE STATS" What a pug tells me when i hear that is that they have no clue as to what a bear tank is in the first place. This comment that you have made is the same reason I have come here in the first place.
    You came here to be vindicated for your bad decisions. That's not going to happen. They're still going to be bad.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    The Pugs happen to be right and you happen to be wrong. Now, they might not understand why they're right, but you should. Instead, you're deciding on how to equip your bear based on some notion that you need to have balanced core stats and don't want to conform and want to be flexible.

    There's no gain in agility right now for bears. None at all. The best case scenario is that you'll have slightly less avoidance than a similarly geared tank of another class but with less health, about the same armor, worse cooldowns and worse threat. That's what you're going for it.

    If you choose to go with hybrid gems, that means you're choosing to partially accentuate your greatest advantage as a bear (health) while gimping yourself. You'll end up with worse avodiance than other tanks that are similarly geared and similar health.

    How does this help you, exactly?

    I'll put it another way.

    If you're dying: you should get more stam.
    If you're having problems with threat: you should get more expertise.
    If you're not really having any issues at all: get agility.

    You came here to be vindicated for your bad decisions. That's not going to happen. They're still going to be bad.
    Ok, I did not come here for vindication, Had i done so, I would have chosen another site to look at. However what I am seeing sis "stak stam" followed by " healz cant keep you alive." As a tank in general, when we loose aggro it is our own fault? So when someone dies, why is it the tanks fault as well?... let alone the tank. As far as myself dieing, I have no problem with it. My issue comes into play with the pugs that have no faith in their own healz. I see the situation within itself, I also take note to each point standing on both sides of the fence here, but like i noted as well this argument has two sides are similar to various religious groups arguing about whose is more correct on the aspect of neither side wanting to even see the others point of view to correct the dilemma.

    As far as my avoidance is concerned, yes it is lower than some i have noticed, however do to this recent "trend" if you will, It has put me on a greater scale Than most.

    I do however appreciate the advice that has been given regardless of how it may appear.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  11. #31
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    If you can point me to one site out there that advocates stacking agility or even using hybrid gems as a majority, I'd love to see it.

    Just one.

    This isn't a religious debate; it's a scientific one. Now, I've argued many times in the past that stamina-stacking is not the only solution to tanking issues and that you should gear things for the encounter, not for some generic 'more EH' goal. And I truly wish that tanking gearing choices were more varied and interesting than stack stam.

    But.

    For the large majority of fights, having more health is going to be a benefit to you. As a bear, you get more benefit from stamina stacking than any other tank - about 25% more than other tanks. This is a huge deal. You should attempt to maximize your benefits and limit your drawbacks. And your biggest gain is high health.

    Avoidance just doesn't have the wins that stamina does most of the time. It certainly doesn't in PuGs. Honestly, you could stack stamina and spirit gems if you really wanted to and you'd be fine for the content you're doing. But in ICC - you're not going to have the same kind of luck. Especially if you want to do any hard modes.

    Now, I do like going expertise. Expertise is a good stat with a lot of gains that are relevant, especially for a bear; a lot of times bears aren't great with threat, particularly if they're not lucky with weapon drops. But agility just isn't cutting it. I use agility gems in my hybrid pieces when I don't have something better for cat, but I try to avoid that when I can. It's otherwise straight stam.

    And please, post this site that advocates stacking hybrid gems or agility or whatever makes your druid happier. I'd love to see it.

  12. #32
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    First and foremost i did not mention the avoidance site that you seem to be obsessed with in your latest post. I mentioned that I chose to post on THIS site... You are getting hung up now for what appears to be someone stepping on your toes. As far as the "religious" debate was mentioned... It was an analogy. I in no way whatso ever intended for you to take me at a line a seriousness there. We use analogies when we are making comparisons. As far as your viewpoint of it being "scientific" you are looking at it the same way that I am you just choose to word it differently. lol.

    There is nothing scientific about copying someone else's research btw. Even if the cop out of it being found to "work" is put into perspective.

    We are getting off topic here, not to mention the argument that this is becoming is beginning to get close to the boarder of what we should and should not post in these forums.
    Last edited by Cellinheim; 02-08-2010 at 05:46 PM.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  13. #33
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    Cellin if you look at the EJ spreadsheet which is for warriors but will still give a good idea, just look at Festergut, the only bass that matters how you gear and look at the Burst Time to live simulated then you can see how much EH is favored which is pretty scientific instead of a blind believe. Here is the spreadsheet if you want to check it out http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t84604-t...adsheet_3_3_a/.

  14. #34
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    Since my next geared toon is a feral druid, I do have a little bit of insight into this. While I detest stacking stamina more than anything else (oh look, a meatshield), note that avoidances always have the % after them...just a chance of happening. Armor and health are absolutes, when it's there, it's there. Save a few mobs that sunder or reduce your health pool (halls of reflection), EH will be your bread and butter. Go through your combat log next time you get squashed by a boss and see what it was that killed you, chances are it's some physical damage (magic damage that will kill you in most fights is usually avoidable or requires you to pop your cooldowns.) to which you can answer with stamina and armor. Avoidance being a happy bonus you get by equipping your gear.

  15. #35
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    On this note... let it be said that Agil grants you more armor... which absorbs physical dmg? So, in the situation where a "agil" bear gets hit his armor should be able to absorb the impact. However, like you noted, Most of the magical effects that are casted can be avoided. Oh then there is the the fact that agil increases my THREAT which would fix your problem of generating it fell hoof.... the threat is increased beacause of my increased crit...I am begining to notice that i perhaps should have started this forum by mentioning that I am a 4 yr bear druid vett... I am not new to this I merely was curious as to what peoples reasoning was behind stamina. NOW, my PROBLEM with stamina... YOU GET HIT! YOU GET HIT HARD! YOU GET HIT MULTIPLE TIMES REALLY REALLY HARD.... you die because healz were not paying attn... AGIL= dont get hit... get hit and ABSORB DMG... granted rng does suck from time to time... but like i have asked here many many times in this forum already and no one seems to be answering the problem... "if i loose aggro, it is my fault. If I die, it is still my fault?" The reason I ask this is because everyone that has so far posted seems to have no faith in their healers.... Shouldnt this be their fault not mine as the tanks... and for the record I have no problem with my guild healz.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  16. #36
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    Cellin', the importance on this issue is not finding a place to put blame, but finding a way to survive. Let's look at Onyxia 25 for example, you can get a wing buffet, flame breath, and melee swipe all at once. Only one of these hits can be mitigated, and to be honest even mitigating it will not save you if you don't have the HP to take all three.

    The reality is that on a fight like festergut, unless you have an uber-geared paladin spam-healing you with his biggest hitting spell continually for the entire 3rd inhale, you need incredible amounts of health. Health is reaction time for healers, and with latency and low FPS that is more than enough time for you to die to two consecutive melee hits. How do we combat this? Stamina and armor.

    Now, you are arguing for agility and agility is good up to a point, but you have to remember that there IS an armor cap of 75% damage reduction and once you hit it that agility you have is quite thoroughly useless. Bear tanks can hit this cap very easily (especially with Kings giving you a 10% boost to your Agi values), which is why they advocate stam stacking.

    The crit argument is not good enough, you can crit every time you hit but if you only hit 1/2 the time you are generating far less threat than if you hit every time and still had the crit that bears do... also you can't forget that when not at expertise cap you can get RNG'd into several crucial misses and splat goes your top DPS. Reality: Expertise > agility for threat and will be until Blizz changes that.

    To recap: what we are saying is that the bears' strength is their high stamina values, so use it to it's full potential without sacrificing all of your other stats. This is the same for every other tanking class, however bears have a few less stats to worry about than the other tanks.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
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  17. #37
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    I am not arguing with the expertise at all. As far as the blame is to be placed? I have a disc priest that main Tank healz... lets use ony 25 since you choose it to start with.... Never have I wiped with this priest keeping me up... and yes, I have had all three hit at once...
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellinheim View Post
    On this note... let it be said that Agil grants you more armor... which absorbs physical dmg? So, in the situation where a "agil" bear gets hit his armor should be able to absorb the impact. However, like you noted, Most of the magical effects that are casted can be avoided. Oh then there is the the fact that agil increases my THREAT which would fix your problem of generating it fell hoof.... the threat is increased beacause of my increased crit...I am begining to notice that i perhaps should have started this forum by mentioning that I am a 4 yr bear druid vett... I am not new to this I merely was curious as to what peoples reasoning was behind stamina. NOW, my PROBLEM with stamina... YOU GET HIT! YOU GET HIT HARD! YOU GET HIT MULTIPLE TIMES REALLY REALLY HARD.... you die because healz were not paying attn... AGIL= dont get hit... get hit and ABSORB DMG... granted rng does suck from time to time... but like i have asked here many many times in this forum already and no one seems to be answering the problem... "if i loose aggro, it is my fault. If I die, it is still my fault?" The reason I ask this is because everyone that has so far posted seems to have no faith in their healers.... Shouldnt this be their fault not mine as the tanks... and for the record I have no problem with my guild healz.
    You're failing to understand something extremely important here... you should always assume the RNG will not favor you. Let me explain probability to you:

    When estimating probability, we must assume an infinite number of instances of something happening. In this case, you getting hit. If you have 30% avoidance, we can only state you'll avoid 30% of the attacks if you're attacked an infinite number of times. This is because it's completely possible that you'll only avoid 10% after being attacked 100 times, or you might avoid 50% of them after 100 attacks. This is the unreliability of avoidance.

    Now the real kicker when dealing with infinity, is that regardless of your avoidance, you'll be hit an infinite number of times in a row, and you'll avoid an infinite number of times in a row. It's counter-intuitive, but it's absolutely true. The reason why is because each time you take a series of hits, you cannot state that you'll never surpass that number of consecutive hits. If, at 30% dodge, you take a string of 12 hits in a row, since we'll never stop getting attacked, eventually you must take a 13th hit, then a 14th... etc... it never ends.

    The reason why this is important, is because at any time, it's possible that you'll be hit by a large string of attacks, despite having fantastic avoidance.

    Now that we've taken this all into consideration, there's a clearly defined limit to how hard you can be hit. Your armor and your stamina will determine how many of those hits you can take. If the boss's hardest hit against you is 22,000 damage, we'll know that a tank at a full raid buffed health of 50,000 will need to be hit at least 3 times before they die. This is reliable information, and nothing can change it. If that tank had gone for more avoidance, and was only at 43,500 raid buffed, it's possible they'd die in two hits instead.

    So, again, do we want reliability, or randomness?

  19. #39
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    lol you do not have to explain random logarithms I am well aware of this. You all are the ones who are refusing to see the point of the arguement at this point in time. It started with a question ... "which" then it turned into "why" then it became ok... "so im dieing because my healz cant keep up" and we are back at it being my fault as a tank lol.
    Thanks,
    Cellinheim

  20. #40
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    The threat increase from the agility is so minimal with gemming, any threat gained from agility will come from the numbers on your gear mainly. Savage defense absorbs on bosses aren't significant enough to block a big hit from a boss, since it's only 25% of your AP. Bears will have a high enough crit from gear and raid buffs to where it will constantly proc, but its mitigation isn't enough for you to go out of your way to get more crit or a slight ap increase from agi gemming. But your main point you bring up is "whose fault is it I'm dying?" The rule of thumb I use here is this: if a tank dies - healer's fault, if the healer dies - tank's fault, if the dps dies - it's their own damn fault. Always assume murphy's law when raiding though, your healer may slip up on a heal or you may not avoid a hit; your solution has to be: what can I do to provide a cushion in those scenarios. This is where stamina comes in, it's not lack of faith in healers, more of preparing for the worst and having faith in myself as a tank to overcome oops moments.

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