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Thread: 5/14/52 build with the new changes?

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    5/14/52 build with the new changes?

    First off, <3 Tankspot and all you contributors.

    I've been running a 5/15/51 fairly typical build, but the recent changes have gotten me thinking about going slightly off the beaten path.

    It would be almost an ICC specific build

    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...02520330113321

    My Reasonings:

    no Imp Rev - nearly worthless now
    no Conc Blow - good for stunning casters and that is about it
    no Vigilance - threat seems to be a joke on everything in there (plus with the amount of tank taunts, Intervene wins)
    no Com Shout - have been running with another prot warrior with this

    Imp Disarm - seems to be enough disarmable mobs its worth the 10 percent additional damage to them
    Spell Reflect - 1/2 seems fair enough, could help on Lady Death casters (single tanking them)
    Imp Cleave - hey its an AoE world, isn't it?
    Pierce Howl - seems to come in very handy, lots of kiting in there (is in current build too)

    Thoughts? Am I off my rocker? My current build does well, but I'm always looking to give my raid that extra little edge

    ~Patch

  2. #2
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    I don't see why you would want Piercing Howl in ICC, the only encounter I can think of where it could be useful is Deathwhisper's adds. Concussion Blow is also beneficial on Lady's adds and other situations because of a stun. Improved Cleave in ICC is only useful for trash since there are no AoE bosses and think if you have ever wiped on trash in ICC, I think not. If you have a ret or prot paladin or a warlock and a few more classes Improved Demoralizing Shout becomes useless. Even if you didn't you could still have your dps warrior spec into it.

    Booming Voice is near useless since it really a filler talent for getting Improved Demo and Commanding Presence. There isn't a single boss that can be disarmed which really ruins Improved Disarm. Improved Spell Reflect is only useful on Lady's adds but doesn't have the universal effect that Concussion Blow has because of an extra stun. Vigilance gives you a good amounts of threat which can help a good bit.

    That being said you would be left with 12 points, I would take 10 and put them in Deepwounds since it increases dps which is pretty important in encounters like Festergut and BQL. With the 2 other points I would get Vigilance simply because of all the threat added and it frees up a glyph spot on Saurfang since you will be able to taunt instantly after your taunt misses if you put Vigilance on the other tank and Concussion Blow simply has too much utility to pass up.
    Last edited by krc; 02-04-2010 at 06:14 PM.

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    krc, try and read your post while taking a breath when you see a comma or a period. Be sure you have something soft to land on, you might black out in some portions :P

    However, I'd support you assertions because:

    -Conc Blow is still useful. Having a DPS or a healer lock down something instead of you with stuns is less efficient
    -Vigilance still carries the 3% DR and refresh on taunts.
    -Commanding PRESENCE can be dropped if you have a specced ret pally or a DPS warrior to keep up Battle Shout. Otherwise, take it just for that.

    -Imp Disarm. ToC was just a setback for Gormokk, he's the Algalon of ICC. Srsly.
    -Spell Reflect. Honestly, it's pretty weak, but if you are gonna go with it, take the 2 points.
    -I'm sure you can replace Piercing Howl with any number of things (Earth bind totem, hunter trap, frost spells on a mage, Frost Fever from a DK, etc.). And that's on top of just stunning them with Shockwave.
    -Imp Cleave - I could see that if you dual specced prot and wanted a trash spec, at best. But yeah, a trash spec is trivial unless you are speed farming ICC only.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    -Conc Blow is still useful. Having a DPS or a healer lock down something instead of you with stuns is less efficient
    How often do we run out of stuns where we would need Conc Blow? I still have 4 interrupts and a silence in my arsenal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    -Vigilance still carries the 3% DR and refresh on taunts.
    I can buy into the 3% DR, but I don't think taunt refreshes are entirely necessary. If perchance a taunt misses I still have Mocking Blow


    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    -Commanding PRESENCE can be dropped if you have a specced ret pally or a DPS warrior to keep up Battle Shout. Otherwise, take it just for that.
    My bad on the typo, you are correct. However I did say I had this covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    -Imp Disarm. ToC was just a setback for Gormokk, he's the Algalon of ICC. Srsly.
    Off the top of my head the only disarmable boss is Saurfang, haven't done extensive testing, but I wouldn't say no to 10 percent extra damage every ten seconds out of forty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    -Spell Reflect. Honestly, it's pretty weak, but if you are gonna go with it, take the 2 points.
    Agreed it isn't stellar, but I wouldn't dismiss it entirely. Single tanking Lady Death adds comes to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    -I'm sure you can replace Piercing Howl with any number of things (Earth bind totem, hunter trap, frost spells on a mage, Frost Fever from a DK, etc.). And that's on top of just stunning them with Shockwave.
    There have been plenty of times Shockwave + Piercing Howl made the difference on Saurfang adds. Not to mention the little oozes on Rotface are affected by it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    -Imp Cleave - I could see that if you dual specced prot and wanted a trash spec, at best. But yeah, a trash spec is trivial unless you are speed farming ICC only.
    The quicker Lady Death adds go down = more dps on the boss. The quicker Gunship adds go down = happier everyone. I still think it may have its uses, but the jury is still out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by damnpatch View Post
    I can buy into the 3% DR, but I don't think taunt refreshes are entirely necessary. If perchance a taunt misses I still have Mocking Blow.
    Mocking Blow is not a taunt, so unless you can put out enough threat to overcome the other tank in that small window of time that the mob is on you, it's just going straight back to the other tank.

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    The thing is that all of the examples you are using Deathwisper, Gunship and Saurfang are on farm the majority of guilds. Festergut and BQL who alot of guilds have trouble with because of hitting an enrage timer the DPS gain from Deep Wounds is far more helpful than some talents listed. I would say spec for your progession, If your progession is the first wing of ICC this is a pretty decent spec along with it maybe being helpful on Valathra adds other than that I personally find the standard 15/3/53 spec to be a favorite. But again though spec for progression, talents like Improved Demo Shout and Commanding Presence are very good for 10 mans because they usually won't be covered while on 25 man they will. Always look at the bosses you are having trouble with and spec towards them, Vene has a very good blog on this but I cannot find it in the archives.

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    For the common MT, seems there is a lot of 'wasted' talents and improved abilities in that spec that won't help you with boss kills. The biggest one for me is the Imp. Cleave, we have plenty of tools already to hand AoE mobs, the bonus damage/threat from Cleave shouldn't be needed, especially if you're progressed enough to be in ICC. Plus DPS isn't your job, extra damage is nice, but not at the expense of your primary role.

    Imp. Spell Reflect and Imp. Disarm can be argued back and forth by a few people, personally to me their gimmick abilities (improved and regular), sometimes can be used, sometimes not, but rarely/almost never required for boss kills. So buffing them via talents is such a waste for abilities you going to get the majority of your use on from trash only; isn't going to help you with your boss kills.

    Piercing Howl is interesting, but again on majority boss fights isn't going to be of great help and can be supplied by another Warrior (last I checked cookie cutter Fury spec's have 2 spare points), something I'd only pick up if I was spec'ing for a specific boss fight where I needed to supply it myself.

    While I agree with the Imp. Revenge spec out, Concussion Blow still has many uses, which the stun effect isn't much use on bosses and the damage is now minimal, but the threat is still good. I personally have stopped using it in my rotation, but it's a good clutch for a high threat move when someone is catching you up. As for Vigilance, so many uses, and a great source of threat for a single talent point, it would be crazy not to pick it up.

    The way I see it, is you still only have 2 real options, the common maximum threat build (15/3/53) or the high survivability build with Imp. Demo, both (since the Devastate changes) dropping Imp. Revenge and putting 2 points in either Shield Spec or Puncture.
    Last edited by Viggo Vickers; 02-04-2010 at 08:17 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Viggo Vickers View Post
    For the common MT, seems there is a lot of 'wasted' talents and improved abilities in that spec that won't help you with boss kills. The biggest one for me is the Imp. Cleave, we have plenty of tools already to hand AoE mobs, the bonus damage/threat from Cleave shouldn't be needed, especially if you're progressed enough to be in ICC. Plus DPS isn't your job, extra damage is nice, but not at the expense of your primary role.

    Imp. Spell Reflect and Imp. Disarm can be argued back and forth by a few people, personally to me their gimmick abilities (improved and regular), sometimes can be used, sometimes not, but rarely/almost never required for boss kills. So buffing them via talents is such a waste for abilities you going to get the majority of your use on from trash only; isn't going to help you with your boss kills.

    Piercing Howl is interesting, but again on majority boss fights isn't going to be of great help and can be supplied by another Warrior (last I checked cookie cutter Fury spec's have 2 spare points), something I'd only pick up if I was spec'ing for a specific boss fight where I needed to supply it myself.

    While I agree with the Imp. Revenge spec out, Concussion Blow still has many uses, which the stun effect isn't much use on bosses and the damage is now minimal, but the threat is still good. I personally have stopped using it in my rotation, but it's a good clutch for a high threat move when someone is catching you up. As for Vigilance, so many uses, and a great source of threat for a single talent point, it would be crazy not to pick it up.

    The way I see it, is you still only have 2 real options, the common maximum threat build (15/3/53) or the high survivability build with Imp. Demo, both (since the Devastate changes) dropping Imp. Revenge and putting 2 points in either Shield Spec or Puncture.

    All very good points. Part of my point was that I am almost *too* comfortable with my role in ICC. FWIW we aren't the most progressed, but everything through Rotface is a one shot. Being so far ahead in threat, and, frankly, not really the bottleneck in progression (Survivability execution etc) I was thinking about ways to boost the raid even the tiniest amount. Let's be honest-most of these fights are pretty boring to tank. Couple that with my disillusionment of the above mentioned talents, I thought it worth discussing alternative options.

    For my money I would take 4/5 Commanding Presence with 1 point in Piercing Howl any day of the week. I don't typically run with a fury warrior, and at the end of the day it's up to *me* to control the fight.

    I'm not completely sold on Conc Blow's usefulness, but I will concede it likely worth it to pick up Vigilance's utility.

    Picking back up on your point of "Plus DPS isn't your job, extra damage is nice, but not at the expense of your primary role." I would consider Imp Spell Reflect and Imp Disarm gimmicky but something of utility talents. No, they definitely shouldn't come at a sacrifice to my primary role, but if my primary role is performing well, the talent points have to go somewhere.

    I'd rather go Cruelty than Shield Spec, and Shield Spec > Puncture.

    Like I said, figured it was worth a quick discussion in light of the recent changes.

    ~Patch

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    Well when I say gimmicky, I'm trying to highlight what little use they actually have on most bosses these days. 99% raid bosses you can't Spell Reflect, and with the exception of the past tier, there isn't any bosses you can disarm.

    As you said about Shield Spec, personally I'm not a fan of it either, but I've taken it for the fact there is little else I can take which will I can get as much use out of, if anything I'll get a few more Heroic Strikes out of the extra rage. Though I wouldn't split hairs about picking up Cruelty instead, which is (imo) certainly better choices than Imp. Spell Reflect and Imp. Disarm.

    Lastly, you want to put out extra damage to help out, Deep Wounds is a huge boost.

    At the end of the day, there isn't a lot of worthwhile talents you can pick up to 'help out' your raid. If your DPS is under performing, you might be better off spending some time with them going through their spec/rotation/glyphs/etc and some target dummy time.

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    I could be wrong , but doesnt the 10% damage from impr. disarm NOT work on bosses? Something in my vague memory tells me it doesnt affect bossses.

    To speak my mind on the matter of actually speccing into it, Disarm has never worked on HC versions of bosses and therefore its totally a waste to even take.
    You say you have another prot warr that has a spec like 5/15/51 , why dont you then spec 15/5/51 and actually increase your own damage a bit. Can always dualspec prot for trashcleave+glyph .

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    Unless I"m mistaken Imp spell reflect also reduces your chance to be hit by spells by 4%. Unless bosses completely ignore that aspect of it it's still an excellent talent to take.

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    Imp. Spellreflect is one of those talents that i think people just discard on sight. The group spell reflect is lackluster yes, but the 4% miss chance does indeed apply to bosses aswell. I tried it last night for Sindragosa and it helps quite abit
    I haven't read anything about imp. disarm not applying it's +10% damage taken debuff to bosses.
    Not speccing Imp. Revenge makes Conc.blow even more needed - talking trashmobs here - as the stun chance on Revenge will be missing. It's often overlooked but it helped alot more than you'd think and only having to rely on charge/intercept's stuns will make tanking alot more troublesome.

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    Is the 4% spell miss from Spell Reflect really worth it though? -Generally- most bosses are not complete casters, they just include a few casts in their set up along with the physical swings and what not, so in total if there is only a handful of magically effects in one fight, along with the miss chance 4% and resists (if resistible), you might be lucky for 1 or 2 casts? Something I'd put in the same category as Block Value (defensive-wise) that it's usage is on the low side. I guess you just have to consider it's value compared to other potential talents you can get.

    Obviously I'm just speculating here, if anyone has some solid information I'd really like to know more.

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    It's 4% to miss, so I'd consider it part of an avoidance factor, and it can save your ass at times. It's pretty nice for Anub p3, that + resist gear = a lot less healing done on him, and a lot less dmg done to you especially if you're add tanking. I'm going on the idea that it's considered a full miss/resist and not just a partial resist of some sort.

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    As a top reduction spec, I think it's worth it.
    Mostly because it's not just (overall) 4% reduction, it's 4% chance wings don't proc on that massive breath, 4% that nasty debuff doesn't get applied and it's stacks fall off, ...
    Certain key abilities in a fight are unresistable (for obvious reasons), but it's those little things added to it that make those annoying, and this talent does eliminate some of those pesky side-effects.
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