+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36

Thread: Getting in to raids is frustrating

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    318

    Getting in to raids is frustrating

    I'm not in a guild that is big, or active, enough to have a group of 80's that I can run raids with. For the moment at least I'm stuck with trying to get into PUG raids. What is starting to bug me is the (IMHO) inflated requirements people seem to put up before you can even get an invite. I'm talking about 5K gearscores and achievements.

    I gave up trying to get into raids on my main which is/was a decently geared hunter (at least he was decently geared prior to 3.3) because I didn't have the achievements. On my hunter I still haven't fully cleared naxx in 10man (let alone 25) even though today my gear is all far better than what I'd find in there. So cos I don't have a majority of the achievements I can't even get into a group for the weekly raid quests.

    So I can't get into groups cos I don't have the achievement and I can't get the achievement without getting into a group.

    Samething goes with gearscore. On my hunter I'm sitting on 4.6K, which according to LFG spam isn't enough to get me into 99% of the 10 man raids. Thing is, when I have been lucky enough to get into raids, dps wise I've equipped myself quite competitively. I've done VoA 10man and Ony 10 man recently and my output has been on a par with people packing a 5K+ gearscore. Yeah I know GS is flawed, but people still use it. I've been knocked back for 10man naxx because of my 'sub par' GS, which to me seems ridiculous.

    This is why I started leveling a tank because I thought that with less people willing to play that role I'd have greater opportunity to get into raids and actually see the content. Thing is it's not actually working out that way either.

    I've tried starting raids myself, but few people want to run with a raid leader that doesn't have the achievement (which I can understand to a certain degree). I will say though, the two wings of naxx I have cleared were with a 10man PUG raid group I started, so it didn't end badly.

    So if I want to see raid content, and can't meet the schedules of the raiding guilds, what are my options? Is it easier to get into raid PUGs as a healer if you don't have the achievements?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    111
    Quote Originally Posted by swollenpickles View Post
    So if I want to see raid content, and can't meet the schedules of the raiding guilds, what are my options? Is it easier to get into raid PUGs as a healer if you don't have the achievements?
    First, there are guilds that raid at just about every schedule imaginable. They may not be on your server, but they do exist. It is far easier to get into raids as whatever toon you prefer to play if you are in a guild you can run with. My advice is to watch the video Lore did on how to make sure you find a good guild, then hit the guild recruitment pages and find a home.

    Now, as to the question.. if you are going the PUG route, I don't know what is easiest; People always seem to be looking for tank/heals, but if you show up as a non geared tank, you may not get in anyway. Honestly, I'm more willing to put up with 1 or 2 bad dps than I am bad heals/tank, simply because there are less ways to cover for them.

  3. #3
    I feel ya. Here are a few thoughts on the matter:

    1. You can get to 5k gs without raiding:

    a) farm the hell out of 5mans for Triumph emblems and bu all the purchaseable gear from that. Either 5pc 232 T9, or 2pc 232 T9 and the 245 chest, shoulders, helm. 2x 245 trinkets, 2x 245 rings. (yes one of the rings is Str/Stam, but it can just be part of your 'gearscore set' you use to get into raids, then swap out with a lower lvl Agi/Stam ring just b/f the fight starts)

    Then buy Crusaders Orbs w/ Triumphs and collect the mats required for the ToC crafted 245 wrists and/or chest.

    b) Farm the 3 new ICC 5mans for 232 gear for whatever slots are left after #1.

    c) Do the weekly raid and random daily for Frost, and pick up the biggest possible ilvl upgrades as you're able to.

    d) Join as many ICC rep farm runs as possible. When you hit Friendly w/ Ashen Verdict you get a free 251 ring.

    e) Do Ony 10 and 25 every week too. It's easier to get into those two raids, less stringent GS requirements, and the fight is easy once you know it. 10 drops 232 and 25 drops 245.

    f) Try for VoA10/25 also. The new VoA boss Toravon is actually pretty easy, and as pug leaders get comfortable with that, they may become more lenient as well.

    2. If you still can't get pug raids after that, you may resort to the Underachiever addon to link fake achievements. Just beware that some pugs actually use pugchecker.com or whatnot to verify achievements. Also make sure to have studied the fights and look like you know them.
    Last edited by Kurtosis; 02-03-2010 at 10:52 PM. Reason: Added Ony10/25

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Istanbul
    Posts
    612
    Well said Kurtosis.

    Offset ilvl245 triumph pieces, the crafted ilvl 245 chest & bracers, tier9 ilvl 232 hands & legs, conquest belt / neck, crafted ilvl 226 boots, badge rings & trinkets. ICC5man drop weapon slots and possible upgrades to neck, trinket, ring, boots & belt slots (not all classes have upgrades available there). This should net you around 5100 GS. Spend your first 50 frost badges on the cloak as that'll be the biggest GS boost (not to mention those cloaks are AWESOME). Expensive gear-up but if you're doing better than most in your current gear, you'll rule with said upgrades and will be a welcome invite to pugs in short time.

    One warning though: While it's quite possible to perform well in less gear in a dps or healing role, a tank in said outfit will be immediately obvious seconds into the first pull. Not saying it's not possible, but it's harder to get by. Difference between a 5400 GS and 5100 GS tank is much more pronounced than a dps in 5400/5100.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    318
    Quote Originally Posted by Fledern View Post
    Well said Kurtosis.

    Offset ilvl245 triumph pieces, the crafted ilvl 245 chest & bracers, tier9 ilvl 232 hands & legs, conquest belt / neck, crafted ilvl 226 boots, badge rings & trinkets. ICC5man drop weapon slots and possible upgrades to neck, trinket, ring, boots & belt slots (not all classes have upgrades available there). This should net you around 5100 GS. Spend your first 50 frost badges on the cloak as that'll be the biggest GS boost (not to mention those cloaks are AWESOME). Expensive gear-up but if you're doing better than most in your current gear, you'll rule with said upgrades and will be a welcome invite to pugs in short time.

    One warning though: While it's quite possible to perform well in less gear in a dps or healing role, a tank in said outfit will be immediately obvious seconds into the first pull. Not saying it's not possible, but it's harder to get by. Difference between a 5400 GS and 5100 GS tank is much more pronounced than a dps in 5400/5100.
    Sorry, I should have pointed out that most of my whinging (and frustration) was in relation to my hunter. To be honest I haven't tried (other than VoA) to get into any raids on my tank, I just don't think I'm ready for that.

    In terms of DPS and GS I'd like to see some correlation between the two. Eg. I'd be interested to see what the real world dps difference is between a hunter with 4.5K GS and 5K GS etc. Based on my own experience and observations in the heroics and raids that i have participated in, the difference is not all that dramatic. I'm not saying there's no difference, cause obviously there would/should be, I'm just not seeing the difference to be that large.

    In case there are any other hunters here, this is a great site for estimating the dps impact on upgrading gear for hunters: http://www.femaledwarf.com/

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    470
    The problem with correlating gearscore to dps is that it's not a straight conversion. Gearscore only tells you how many "points" were allotted to an item, not what those points are allotted too. The reason a lot of people still use ilvl 200 trinkets is because they're simply better than the 245 versions. The 245 versions have more points, but don't use them well. I could have a 15k gearscore, the highest anyone has ever seen, wearing a bunch of awesome cloth gear, and chances are it wouldn't help my tanking. Now, obviously that's a skewed example, but look at 213 boots with 50 agility, 50 stamina, 20 Haste, 20 ArP, 20 Crit vs. 226 with 55 agility, 75 stamina, 40 Crit... which one is better is not as clear cut as simply "higher gear score."

    Rather than link Gearscores, when they ask for dps for a raid just tell them your dps (and don't inflate it, that's never appreciated). You could even say something like "yeah, just gearing this guy up, so only about a 4.5k gearscore, but I know my rotation well and usually pull about xk dps"

    Won't always work, but it usually helps.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    Dude, change servers, yours seems more retarded then others. 4600 gs and you can't get into Naxx 10? That's just insane. Here's my hunter, its gs sits at around 5543, give or take. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...za&cn=Wharfrat. Note a few things - I have emblem, belt,shoulders, gloves, cloak and had the 245 emblem chest. The legs are VoA 25 but you can get the 232 legs for emblems. I used the emblem 245 trinket for a while too.

    You can get the 245 helm for emblems. In other words there's enough crafted and emblem gear to get you kissing 5000 gs easy. It takes a lot of 5 man grinding, but you'll get there. Once you hit the gs most of the PuG idiots don't care about achievements. Check out Wharfrat, Alexstrasza in www.pugchecker.com. I don't have Naxx 10 or naxx 25, but the fights are easy to learn and it ain't Rocket Surgery. (Full disclosure I do have the achievements on Theotherone, my tank, so I know the fights). Grind what you can get into, and hope for some drops, but stay doing the 5 mans and the emblems will build up.

    This is my Pally GS of just over 3500 (rock'in the green mace) and I hit 80 on Sunday morning Jan 31. Lot's of heroics (okay I did do some ToC 10 with my guild, and the weekly in Naxx but that only netted a 232 belt, and lvl 200 bracers) http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&cn=Jackstraw; except for work getting it the way, I know I'd be over 4k by now. Also, I don't ask for help in the guild with heroics, I do randoms, I want the 2 extra Triumphs and don't want to be a pest.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    WI, USA
    Posts
    2,614
    Quote Originally Posted by swollenpickles View Post
    So if I want to see raid content, and can't meet the schedules of the raiding guilds, what are my options? Is it easier to get into raid PUGs as a healer if you don't have the achievements?
    I'd recommend however posting that you are looking for a raid, on your main, in your realm forums and the times your looking for and see what kind of responses you may get. Also in the same regard, maybe the problem is that you are limiting your search too much by only looking for guild raids. You may also want to look into raiding alliances if there are any for your faction on your server. These are generally a mix of guilds with too few members to form their own raids, or people who simply can't make their guild raid schedule so they raid under a different banner. It would offer some advantages over simply pugging in that you would have consistent hours and predefined rules. I am in a guild with 2 people in it, I lead two different 25 man raids (at one point I was leading three 25 man raids and one 10 man raid as a guild with just myself in it).
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    318
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Dude, change servers, yours seems more retarded then others. 4600 gs and you can't get into Naxx 10? That's just insane.
    Good news, I got into Naxx to kill the weekly guy last night. I think the weekly raid quest may be causing people to relax a little on their requirements for the weekly (perhaps?). Hopefully I can get into a few weekly groups now and grind it out. Only problem is I'm not sure how many people would want to stay on for the full run (nobody did last night).

    I'm still grinding out the emblems of triumph and frost, although at the rate I'm going it's going to be a couple of weeks minimum before I have enough frosts for anything useful. The 10-20mins wait to get into the random dungeon finder is a killer too. It kinda makes me cry but the gear on my DK is already better than my hunter, and in relative terms, I've spent hardly any time playing my DK.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    318
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    Also in the same regard, maybe the problem is that you are limiting your search too much by only looking for guild raids. You may also want to look into raiding alliances if there are any for your faction on your server. These are generally a mix of guilds with too few members to form their own raids, or people who simply can't make their guild raid schedule so they raid under a different banner.
    Thank you. That's good advice and something I honestly hadn't heard/considered before.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    318
    Quote Originally Posted by Eravian View Post
    Gearscore only tells you how many "points" were allotted to an item, not what those points are allotted too. The reason a lot of people still use ilvl 200 trinkets is because they're simply better than the 245 versions
    Here's a practical example, I currently have Mirror of Truth and Coren's Chromium Coaster (from when I was trying for the Brewmaster title) equipped. Both are ilevel 200 items. Given that it can take me quite a long time to eek out emblems (relative to my tank at least) I could make a quick gearscore gain by picking up Battlemaster's Rage which is ilevel 245 and can be picked up by exchanging honor points (which I dont have any use for at the moment anyway). Now thats going to up my gearscore, but my DPS would actually drop by 23.55.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,762
    Quote Originally Posted by swollenpickles View Post
    Sorry, I should have pointed out that most of my whinging (and frustration) was in relation to my hunter. To be honest I haven't tried (other than VoA) to get into any raids on my tank, I just don't think I'm ready for that.
    Ah! But you propably are!
    An easy test if you can tank the first few bosses in ICC10 is joining a trash farm group and do the first trash groups over and over and over again. The stakes are low. As is the skill level of the DPS. So you will cope with PUG++. It gives you rep and practice. And you can assess if you are "healable" as a tank. Plus you get a feel for tanking in a raid setting together with a fellow tank. Most stuff in ICC10 will be 2tanked so it really does help you. Trash in an undisciplined group is harder than most bosses.

    Tanking the first 4 bosses/fights in ICC10 is not that hard. Only on LDW it could become tricky during the add phases. But in all honesty, if you can clear the first room you are at least ready for the rest. You can tank inkluding Saurfang in iLvl232 stuff with badged iLvl245 stuff. If you have Ony drops(sword and ring, not necessarily the trinket) then that is a bonus. Heck, ToC25 is easy to tank. Just wet your toes in ICC10 rep farm groups first.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Istanbul
    Posts
    612
    Quote Originally Posted by swollenpickles View Post
    Sorry, I should have pointed out that most of my whinging (and frustration) was in relation to my hunter. To be honest I haven't tried (other than VoA) to get into any raids on my tank, I just don't think I'm ready for that.
    And my gearing suggesstion was generic, applicable for any class. It's the easiest way to boost your gearscore. If people MUST see a good gearscore, then i'd say you're allowed to cheese it anyway you can. Including getting pvp gear (cloak, belt & trinkets are the most likely spots). Once in the raid, you can switch back to gear that's more reasonable for the job. But seriously, other than cheesing the GS requirement, the list me & Kurtosis gave will actually net you a nice dps/tank/whatever set where you might want to go downgear only on 1-2 pieces.

    There are a couple of regular pug raids happening on my server. The raidleaders are well known. Try to grab them when they're NOT trying to organize one and go on a 5-man. Show them that you're capable in the gear you have. You'll get invites to said pugs much more easily. And since they're regular pugs, it can turn into many repeat performances.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    467
    I didnt catch which server you are on, be it low population or high.. i have found that high population servers are a mixed bag, whilst low population can be incredibly frustrating trying to find another living being thats not an NPC !

    Do a bit of research and troll the wow forums a bit find a server with a moderate level of horde vs alliance guilds and chat to people on the forums first. Decide what you think you want from wow and a guild and make a decision from there.

    If you are only playing 1 night a week for fun and cookies then dont be surprised you are not getting raid spots and limited to PUGS. High population servers have a gazillion players wanting to pug arthas and as such they will be more awkward about gear score and achievements..(i had a mage with low lvl epics on a high pop server and whilst i have raid led every encounter up to current content i couldnt get an onyxia 10 man spot !). Try and find a guild that is just above your level and join them.

    Pug raiding is not the best way forward but if its your only option then raiding as healer/tank will net you more invites without the necessary achievs than being dps. As other posts above allude to - get the best gear you can from heroic bashing and crafting first tho.
    Belgariad: EU : Lightnings Blade. Once a Tank. Always a Tank.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    What's your hunter spec? Can you link your armory? If you spec'd BM, that may answer why you're not getting into raids.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    1,632
    Quote Originally Posted by swollenpickles View Post
    In terms of DPS and GS I'd like to see some correlation between the two.
    Unfortunately your not going to find any correlation between the two, because GS is a irrelevant tool that cannot measure skill. You are not your gear (although many people think otherwise), yes you need some but its not "be all", you are how well you play your character. But lets drop this GS discussion, its old, its tired, and we all know that discussion about it ends in the same place.... a locked thread by our friendly Ninja Moderator.

    If you want to get in to raids my best advice is to build your character the best you can, hone your skill, and start guild shopping for one that meets your needs and schedule.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    1,277
    Quote Originally Posted by swollenpickles View Post
    Thank you. That's good advice and something I honestly hadn't heard/considered before.
    This is good advice from Quinafoi. There are lots of guilds in the same boat as yours, and people stick to their guild for whatever reason. Last summer a friend of mine (who is the only one in his guild heh), ran Ulduar 10 mens successfully pretty much every week. He's friends with individual players from various guilds and he served sort of as a nucleus for such things. Even people from larger guilds brought their alts in. Although they weren't pushing any serious progress they did do a number of hard modes before ToC hit, and even downed Yogg once or twice.

    They can be fragile, but at the same time quite flexible. One key thing is finding people who like to play, and don't grind their teeth on the first wipe.
    "Just because it's not nice doesn't mean it's not miraculous." - T. P.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    There is some correlation between GS and DPS http://www.wow.com/2010/02/04/scatte...skill-vs-gear/

  19. #19
    You can think of raid advertisements like job advertisements. What they are is just a starting point for negotiation. At the end of the day, the raid leader has 24 spots to give out, and he's just weighing you against his other options. Talk to the raid leader and sell yourself; don't instantly give up when their initial requirement is too high

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    318
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    What's your hunter spec? Can you link your armory? If you spec'd BM, that may answer why you're not getting into raids.
    I'm MM spec'd and that's been my main spec since I started playing. Here's me.

    I've run countless ICC10 and 25 man rep runs and consistently pumped out more dps than people with 5K gearscores both on multiple mobs and single targets, all the time being able to stay alive longer and with fewer deaths than a majority of the other dps I've run with. My last heroic run on forge of souls for example had a dk with 5.1K gear score and warrior with 5.4K gear score and my dps output on both bosses was higher than both of them. DPS = gear + skill - lag. I think I've played long enough to be at the point where my rotation and familiarity with the class is such that I can make up for the 300-400K gear score discrepancy that keeps me out of a lot of PUGs.

+ Reply to Thread

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts