Frost vs Blood AE threat 2T10

[Deoreus]

Hey all -

I am a DW frost tank and our MT is a blood tank. Our gear is roughly eqivalent with mine being slightly more threat leaning (more exp + hit) and his more EH. I killed him on AE threat until we both got our 2 piece bonuses. After that, it's barely even which leads me to the question of: How does DW frost AE threat scale with gear?

I don't know if anyone cares to crunch numbers on this, but I'm thinking that the extra AP from veteran of the third war + 2 piece + using a 2h (higher weapon dmg than a 1h, thus higher disease damage) pushes a blood tank's DnD + diseases even with or slightly over DW frost's DnD, HB (glyphed), BB rotation.

I went 2h frost this week so see how that impacts it one way or the other.

Comments?

[Molecule]

I'd have to see your specs to know for sure, but if you both have fairly typical specs then I am guessing that the reason you're seeing this gap is that his spec includes morbidity (which reduces the cooldown on death and decay) and yours doesn't.

Disease damage doesn't scale with weapon DPS, only with attack power, and Vot3W is not going to make nearly as much of a difference as having Howling Blast in terms of AP scaling.

[vine]

Cha-ching. Satorri strikes again http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...922#post339922

[Satorri]

Heh, I don't know how helpful that will be to the question at hand though, Vine. =)

So, like Molecule said, weapon damage has no bearing at all on disease damage, only AP.

That said, Black Ice and the slightly stronger value of Tundra Stalker vs Blood-gorged, should help Frost match the the damage buffing Blood gets from the extra AP via Strength from Vot3W and Abom's Might, so Disease damage shouldn't be an appreciable change.

For clarification, do you use a single or double disease method for AoE?

Also, can you share your respective talent trees?

The funny thing in the balance between Blood and Frost, especially a glyphed HB flash aoe setup for Frost, is that Blood isn't actually behind Frost on the cruising threat when well played, Frost just happens to have a significant edge in the starting where they get a surge ahead. That surging nature usually means they win the attention, not that they have superior long term threat.

That said, if the 2 pc set bonus is making all the difference, I'm curious as to how you're using your tools. Also which glyphs? If he is using glyphed DnD and/or chain casts DnD, that could make the difference.

There is a lot more to the equation than specs.

[Deoreus]

This is an issue with external mechanics...

He and I had been talking and thought this was a DK issue and the 2T10 was amazing, but we only use recount so looking over the numbers was somewhat inaccurate. I brought it up over vent and found out that we had a rogue and hunter that had been doing MD / ToT to him during trash so being about even on threat even with the MD and tricks should put frost safely on top for AE threat. Adding those external factors w/o numbers makes it sloppy, but now I'm wondering how far ahead frost should be.

Just for the number crunching...

Frost DK spec
Glyphs: Unbreakable Armor, Icy Touch, Obliterate, Pest, HoW, Blood Tap
* Have tried HB glyph in place of IT and notice it was a bit better probably due to the HB in the first rotation and the frost fever having time to tick away.

Rotation:
1) DnD, HB, BB
2) IT, PS, Pestilence, HB, BB

Stats (unbuffed):
Atk: 3376
Hit: 300
Crit: 12.75%
Exp: 31

Blood DK spec
Glyphs: Runestrike, Disease, Death Strike, Pest, HoW, Blood Tap
Rotation:
1) DnD, IT, PS, Pestilence
2) Need to verify, but I believe - BB, BB, DS, DS

Stats (unbuffed):
Atk: 3934
Hit: 225
Crit: 10.75%
Exp: 21

Edit: Noticed I had the HB at the start of the 2nd rotation for frost, but it's still on cooldown and done after the Pestilence.

[Knyteshade]

Speaking as a blood tank, he's likely using HS for the cleave component for AoE tanking and switching targets often enough to hit as many as he can between his DnD's and BB's.

[vine]

Speaking as a blood tank, he's likely using HS for the cleave component for AoE tanking and switching targets often enough to hit as many as he can between his DnD's and BB's.

Frost doesn't have access to HS.

[KnThrak]

With Frost you usually glyph Icy Touch, and once you combine that with the talents you usually end up being slightly ahead of a Blood tank.
And I still dance on your grave with my Unholy spec. Slow to start up, but once the diseases tick and the DnD is on the floor...

[Cabar]

Having switched from frost to blood recently... I have to say you'd be quite insane to spec blood specifically for AE tanking.
Don't get me wrong, it works. But it is such a headache after you've done a single disease, HB-glyphed, frost build. And you will never get the snap agro you enjoyed as frost.

When we talk about "AE tps", just remember it's not in a box. You have real raidmembers who will not wait 3 GCDs for your threat to get going.

As an additional note, when frost tanking remember you get significant increases from having frost fever on your targets(tundra stalker, glacial rot). Personally I'd make sure to spread diseases before laying DnD down, or HBing, at least for a max AE tps scenario.

edit: forgot glacial rot

[Knyteshade]

Frost doesn't have access to HS.

Yeah and Blood doesn't have Howling Blast either.