Hi,
im pretty new to this board, but i thought i'd pick your brains on this matter
Well, now that Devastate scale even better than before, I wonder if using a 2.6 speed weapon for tanking would be viable.
pros:
- less button smashing (less heroic strike swings)
- less rage required (less heroic strike swings)
- devastate & mocking blow increased (scaling threat component)
- anything else?
cons:
- less heroic strike swings (static threat component)
- loss of avoidance stats/procs on weapon
- anything else?
overall i think it comes down to at what values the scaling of devastate becomes better than the static threat of heroic strike?
I didnt really go out of the way to think this through, but as i stated in the beginning of the post, im just trying to pick your brains here.
I would advise looking through some posts here on the site; there is already a current thread or two that covers this topic rather definitively. Also The Complete Warrior Spreadsheet will answer your question.
What it comes down to is heroic strike up-time.
Be a Champion, not a hero.
Drae
wow.... just wow.
I ran ICC10 yesterday with a 2.6 speed weap. aprox. 100% uptime on heroic strike and practically never rage starved... I wont be going back to fast weapons unless they re-nerf deva.
I'm having essentially the same experience using a Bloodvenom Blade. I wouldn't pass up The Facelifter when it drops, it's a nice tanking weapon and would probably be my top choice. For now it's doing what I need it to and I switch to Ardent Guard if in doubt.
Originally Posted by Kalken
The point of slow vs fast is the amount of HS's, not the 'uptime'
I'm also very supsicious about the fact you could get 100% HS spam when not having aggro such as on Lady Deathwhisper.
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
well let me just halt you right there... There is no need to build aggro when not actually tanking a tauntable boss like deathwhisper, although that too would be better with a slow weapon since you get aprox. the same amount of rage from swings but Deva dmg goes up, and thats usually the only ability you can afford while not recieving dmg.
There are many discussions on slow vs fast and its effects on rage, DPS and Threat. I will leave those alone, and stick with more practical thoughts (probably also covered in the threads Drae is strongly but politely telling you where to go to).
Slow weapons are designed for 1h dps (rogues, enh shamans, DW DPS DKs, possibly (lol) hunters). If you take a sword from one of these guys, I hope you burn in hell. If however, it is in danger of being DE'ed, by all means snag it.
Slow weapons are pure threat. They have none of the characteristic tank stats (Defense, stamina, dodge, parry, etc.). You get a smidgeon of avoidance/armour because they always have agi instead of strength, which is another indication you shouldn't be using those kind of weapons. You are also likely having sub-optimal itemization of the item has ArPen, as it's only good if you have lots of it, which you can't possibly have in tank gear.
Fast weapons have either have clear tanking stats, or occasionally they are fast and have DPS stats, indicating that it's supposed to be an off-hand. If it's supposed to be an OH weapon, it's pretty much an option of last resort if you can't get anything else and you can afford the loss of tank stats (which isn't likely to be the case if you can't get a real tank weapon).
More HS = more crits = more DW for starters. I have never limited the speed discussion to threat only. Not only because when threat is far enough ahead, helping with DPS matters, but also because there are several fights in ICC that have you offtanking, which means your DPS is virtually all that matters untill you press that Taunt button.
And your statement contradicts the earlier of "practically never rage starved". Perhaps it was unclear communication (as with 0 exterior rage income you can actually use HS besides Devastate spam, but the max amount depends on the cost, which depends on the weapon speed), but all together I found your original comment sound a bit like "wow I can just spam Dev+HS with a slow weapon!!". Either you can with a fast as well, or you can with neither. When in an Infinite Rage situation (=taking damage, which you assumed), any weapon speed can get massive HS usage, fast weapons just need to press the button more often. The difference you noticed is more likely due to avoidance streaks not burning through your rage as fast as you would have had with a fast weapon. This only results in an easier playstyle, not a massive increase in (mathematically) maximum threat/damage output.
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
No. One of the stipulations of warrior tanking is the fact that faster weapons produce more threat with heroic strike due to the +threat added with each heroic strike.If you're becoming rage-starved with a fast weapon, a slow weapon is likely better - especially with buffed devastate.
You are contradicting yourself... with a slower weapon you would actually get more damage in those ragestarved fights because you get bigger Deva hits witch is basically the only ability you can afford with no "exterior rage", and even with "exterior rage" present you sometimes get ragestarved with a fast weapon when bosses target other players to cast special abilities and you burn through your rage in no-time because of HS spam.
correct me if im wrong, but no warrior ability increases in rage cost based on weapon speed? what you write is nonsense.
ok, so you get offended by me suggesting that warriors are now simplified... my problem or yours?
yes, but again, you will get rage starved at some points when certain bosses are casting spells or targeting other people with special abilities.
from loosing ~1% avoidance? i dont think so...
again with the attitude? sorry for stating the obvious that warriors now have an easier rotation...
Pvp weapons as usual are great for this as they are the highest stamina weapons in the game (unless the socket bonus on heroic lich king tank weapon gives stamina), are 2.6 speed are ilvl 277 and just require you to pvp. With how overpowered prot warriors are right now, it should not be difficult to hit 2200 assuming you know how to devestate spam, stun lock and you have good armor penetration gear. Even if you are horrible, getting to 1800 is trivial. Just pretend the healer is a no threat table npc and you should do fine.
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51522
148 stamina
As to whether a 2.6 speed weapon is viable, it is. Using the Complete Protection Warrior DPS/TPS Spreadsheet v1.08 and my stats (which are probably fairly average) there is a minimal DPS gain by using a 2.6 speed weapon and a minimal TPS gain by using a 1.5 speed weapon. We aren't talking significant numbers either way, but the difference is there. My 1.5 speed weapon does 178.6 DPS which works out to 8995 TPS/3690 DPS. My 2.6 speed weapon does 226.5 DPS which works out to be 9158 TPS/3871 DPS. If my fast weapon were also 226.5 DPS i'd see a ~70 TPS increase by using it at the cost of ~71 DPS. Again, just plugging numbers into the spreadsheet - could be missing something here of course.
For the purpose of the original question, I would have to say it comes down to what you have - if it's a large enough upgrade as in my case then it's a plus. I would prefer the feel of a medium fast weapon personally, so I'll be using a Facelifter as soon as I can get my hands on one.
Last edited by kolben; 02-05-2010 at 06:29 PM.
I too have gotten used to the cadence of fast weapons on protracted engagements (boss fights) and won't be switching unless there is a reasonable gain from doing so. That said, I have been using a 2.6 speed weapon (currently an ICC 10 axe) in heroics for more DPS, and because hitting harder is more important than HS uptime when I am tab-devastating trash (also it doesn't hurt on cleave).
Again, even without exterior rage you can afford SOME HS, which does matter DPS-wise. That is under the assumption you have some points in Focused Rage/Puncture and are using SnB procs when they are up. I'll come to the second part later.
Heroic Strike and Cleave consume a white hit. The loss of the rage gained from the white hit is generally considered as part of the Rage cost(as it's rage you can't use somewhere else). The rage gained from the white swing is dependant on the weapon speed.correct me if im wrong, but no warrior ability increases in rage cost based on weapon speed? what you write is nonsense.
I was not offended, I merely stated how I perceived your post. You based yourself on a small sample size with anecdotal evidence and made a blunt statement based on it. From an analythic PoV that's hardly contributing. If I am offended by anything on these boards, it's by snide remarks.ok, so you get offended by me suggesting that warriors are now simplified... my problem or yours?
The only bosses in ICC atm which I've found to have a lot of melee interupted by casting/targetting are Rotface and Lady D. Neither of them hits hard enough to really count as an Infinite Rage scenario.yes, but again, you will get rage starved at some points when certain bosses are casting spells or targeting other people with special abilities.
No from the lower amount of HS you can get in in the same time frame, which means less total Rage spent.from loosing ~1% avoidance? i dont think so...
Actually, if I wanted to give you attitude I would've stated that "a skilled player who already got the max out of his character would see very little difference either way". Instead I tried to explain things in a non-insulting manner. And to be exact, you stated that you had an extremely high HS uptime and rarely had rage problems, not that you had a far easier time doing your rotation.again with the attitude? sorry for stating the obvious that warriors now have an easier rotation...
I will close this off by saying that picking apart a post that tries to argument why you see what you have and then throw personal remarks half the time is hardly a professional way of discussing things. Yes, you can faceroll tank now, but it was hardly rocket science before and in the end the changes only made slow weapons equal while they were slightly behind before. The biggest change is probably that you can now replace CB with MB.
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
Has anyone tested the precise damage and threat of the newly hotfixed devastate? I had a quick bash on a target dummy with a white vendor axe and couldn't make sense of the numbers I was seeing.
This is probably the best DPS option currently available: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50412
In optimal conditions, that gives me a top DPS of around 3790 DPS and 10500 TPS.
This is quite a bit higher than The Facelifter, which gives me 3520 DPS and 10060 TPS with the updated Devastate. The Last Word would give me 3585 DPS and 10170 TPS.
So, slow and DPS-oriented weapons have quite good results. It's a pretty small difference in the grand scheme of things, though.
It's also worth noting that quite a large chunk simply comes from the DPS stats themselves. For instance, http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50411 is more or less the same as the Bloodvenom Blade other than the weapon speed, and gives a result of 3660 DPS and 10380 TPS. So only around 130 DPS/120 TPS is coming from the difference in weapon speed. I wouldn't consider that worth being overly concerned about.
Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!
I find this weapon interresting http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50692/black-bruise/ specially as an orc.
Jayde, I'm not getting a tooltip or link to work on that second weapon in your example. Do you recall what you were thinking of?
Comes up for me as Scourgeborne Waraxe.
Thanks kindly. Wowhead must've hiccuped for me then.
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