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Thread: Possible Agi/Stam gems in the mix

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    Possible Agi/Stam gems in the mix

    Since armor is taking over in icc, would anyone recommend agi/stam gems in sockets (as there are no flat out armor gems)? As opposed to a dodge/stam or an omg stam in every socket. I'm thinking the agi wouldn't be bad for the TPS either (a slight crit increase) and a slight dodge increase. I'd like to see what some of the tankspot regulars would have to say in relation to this post, you guys are my forum heroes.

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    I've been using Agi/Stam all along for my red gem slots, they will give you less pure dodge value but what you lose in that you get in Armor and crit chance.

    In addition Agility is actually scaled with Kings, which is not game breaking, but very handy. Find Theck's math here about the relative survival value of agility:
    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...l-out-of-dodge

    Short version is Agility is already ~98% as effective at damage reduction as dodge rating is and it contributes to your threat as well.
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    Was definitely hoping you'd stop by and post on my question Satorri. And the kings buff does make it a much more viable stat. Should I go ahead and swap some pure stams out from my red slots and switch to the shifting dreadstone?

  4. #4
    Sat,

    I've been stacking +Def and +stam instead of stacking parry or dodge gems as we showed in other posts that stacking DEF gives more avoidance overall than either dodge or parry. Is the AGI something we should be looking into as a replacement for +DEF? I have an AGI/Stam 2h polearm in my tankset, so I'm good there, but haven't thought about stacking AGI outside of that.

    I'm a frosty, not blood...but if the benefit is there and worth it I'll make the move as I keep replacing gear.

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    Lucky dks lol. I'm stuck with a 1h and a shield. This post may get fun questions *excited*.

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    At this level of gear plus CotT, if you're well geared of course, if you choose to gem agi/stam instead of dodge/stam or even pure stamina, it doesn't really matter, since there are no bosses hitting extremely hard for the whole time (Festergut you have to call for CDs, so it's not the case).
    IMHO: It's all about how you'd like to take damage, how you'd like the healer is going to watch your HP bar. With armor you're probably going to take MORE overall damage, but your hp bar wont move so randomly and spiky, and it's something you can trust to be in there for when you NEED it. With Avoidance you're probably going to take LESS overall damage, but your hp bar will move randomly, and every hit will do a higher amount of damage, plus it's not something you can trust to be in there when you NEED it.

    *I*, as a paladin, would never gem for hit nor expertise, I'd rather to get gear with hit [Right now I am at 275hit lol] than to gem for it, and with expertise, well, strength is better than expertise in terms of threat even if you're under the soft-cap. Right now I gem Shifting Dreadstone for red socket or Enduring Eye of Zul for yellow socket, if the socket bonus has 9+ stamina.

    And BTW satorri, I believe that graphic is for paladins, warriors, DKs and druids dont take the same amount of dodge out of agi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goros View Post
    I've been stacking +Def and +stam instead of stacking parry or dodge gems as we showed in other posts that stacking DEF gives more avoidance overall than either dodge or parry.
    It is supposed to be that pure dodge will give you more avoidance, but since we all have huge amounts of dodge, and even parry, defense will give you more avoidance because of the +miss and (if you're warrior or paladin) it will give you an "extra chance to mitigate" some damage. [I'm currently at about 29% dodge, 22% parry, and I am not a fan of avoidance]
    Last edited by MudNova; 02-02-2010 at 06:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Short version is Agility is already ~98% as effective at damage reduction as dodge rating is and it contributes to your threat as well.
    Are you taking class into consideration with that 98% value? I know warriors have different conversion values than paladins do for example.

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    I'm thinking he's saying that when the damage is measured at the end of a fight, it shows that the agility has about the same effect on the damage mitigation that dodge does. Not the actual class numbers and how agility directly correlates to their respective classes. Personally, I prefer the armor always being there instead of a chance that an attack will hit me (the spiky-ness of damage makes me poo a little sometimes). I like the option of being a little more proactive instead of reactive with my CDs and healer CDs.

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    part of that % value comes from the conversion though. Warriors would see a lower efficiency than paladins for example, because you get less avoidance per point of agility than paladins do, while armor contributions are constant among the two classes. So if it is 98% as good as dodge at damage reduction for paladins, I would expect a lower number for agility.

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    I'm fairly certain the comparison stands for plate wearers, though it's not my math. We all get the same armor/dodge value out of Agility (though the Agility varies depending on your other dodge contributions).

    Where did you find different contributions for dodge through? I know the crit chance varies per agility, but I didn't think there was a base differential in dodge. Theck's post was done for Paladins, of course.

    And Goros, *my* method for gearing is one just to get the most raw stat values I can out of my gear. I'm a bit OCD and don't like to waste values at the (often flimsy) assumptions on value.

    So, I usually go for Stam on every socket, but I use secondary color gems to keep my socket bonuses for red and yellow slots. So, since I've been flush with hit rating lately, that is Def/Stam in yellow sockets and Agi/Stam in red sockets. Generally I appreciate having the higher armor and the crit chance for Blood as it buffs my other stats nicely. In order for dodge to give better net values than agility it would have to manage:
    pure dodge % > smaller dodge%+armor
    *and*
    increased RS usage > the slightly lower RS use *and* Agi crit *and* AP from armor

    I haven't taken the time to try to approximate it all because it would involve so many assumptions, I think Theck's math is good enough to feel confident that it is not a deficient value.
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    Paladins have a higher dodge conversion from agi than warriors, this has been in place since i think TBC. Lemme dig up Satrina's DR formula, you'll notice the agi component for paladins is different than warriors and possibly DKs.

    edit:

    here we go, link for source: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...urns-Avoidance

    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    Here comes the math
    Finally, the agility you have beyond your naked agility also affects your dodge chance, based on class:

    Code:
    Class          Dodge/Agility
    Warrior		0.0118
    Paladin		0.0167
    Deathknight	0.0118
    Druid		0.0209
    
    These values are correct as of patch 3.2

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    For warriors, Dodge is "Better" than agility, but the thing is, with the amount of avoidance on gear, and with healing the way it is, I don't really see any reason to gem or enchant for avoidance. There just aren't any fights where it is worth while in my opinion. My healers know what they are doing, and I have told one of them that I trust to let me know if I suddenly get hard to heal, so I prefer to do as much as I can to reduce the size of the hits I take, and increase my damage. Agility/Stam gems cover both of those bases, and while Exp/Stam would, strictly speaking, be "better", my personal priority is mitigation first, unless there is too big a stat difference (Of the stats I value) to ignore. (Case in point, I am wearing the rep ring instead of the armor ring from ony)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    I'm fairly certain the comparison stands for plate wearers, though it's not my math. We all get the same armor/dodge value out of Agility (though the Agility varies depending on your other dodge contributions).

    Where did you find different contributions for dodge through? I know the crit chance varies per agility, but I didn't think there was a base differential in dodge. Theck's post was done for Paladins, of course.
    See Kazey's post. The agility to dodge conversion is not universal. It varies with some classes.

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    Feeling kind of honored now, getting two of the main people I wanted to comment on this thread (Satorri and Kaz). I was thinking with dodge gemming I'd run into DR because the gear itself has so much avoidance already. Kind of sad that they took agi off of tanking gear, it was fairly common with TBC gear. Gonna screw around with my gems now that servers are back up...and QQ a little about my Warbringer nerf (thanks mages.)

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    well, agi gets DR the same as dodge anyways, it all contributes to the same boat which is dodge %. but I understand that gemming agi for you was more about gaining some small threat + armor gains along with the stam, which isn't crazy. The simple fact is that right now, the difference between gemming agi/stam in red, dodge/stam in red, or just flat out 30 stam in all sockets, is very negligible. The differences would be something like...

    500 more hp all stam
    .8% more dodge for dodge/stam
    .7% more dodge and .02% mitigation from armor for agi/stam

    As long as you have the correct pieces, and using your trinkets intelligently (armor for physical heavy fights, hp for spell damage heavy, etc), you're relative values aren't going to change very much between gemming one way or another.

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    I was going along with what Satorri said about how the agi and stam will scale with kings in ways that dodge never would. But in the end, it's all about balancing my stats correctly and like you said Kaz using things intelligently (not gonna pop an on use trinket on Saurfang when I'm not the one taking the hits, etc.) With some of the socket bonus availability, getting the bonus of say 12 stam vs full stam gems to gain an extra 3 stamina total isn't going to make or break my hp. The hybrid gem I choose to socket may or may not have an effect on tank style/raid make up. I'm hoping that fresh faced tanks will catch on that stamina isn't the only way to go when socketing their items, they mainly just /inspect 25 icc geared tanks in a city and see how they're gemming and try to follow suit. Definitely one of the things I love most about these forums is that you don't catch the stupidity curve you would in trade chat or blizzard forums.

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    Personally, I am forever gemming expertise/stam to keep up decent threat, and sometimes I go slightly over the soft cap so I don't have to regem when I lose expertise gear. However, if I were to find myself with ridiculous amounts of expertise and 12 stamina socket bonuses or the like, Agi/stam is right up there on the next candidate, along possibly with str/stam to boost threat some more. Because at the end of the day, despite the honest truth pointed out by Kaze, Agi is the only way to "gem for armour" as it were.

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    The shortest and simplest answer is that it is completely and totally irrelevant. You can't quantify the real world difference between the two (I'm not talking about the mathematical applications behind them) with any sort of mathematical formula and will likely go the rest of your wow playing days without either choice having a "make or break" moment where one of the decisions would have made a difference.

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    Hmm, I remembered Druids working differently, but I had it stuck in my brain that the plate wearers had the same base conversion. Good to know, but I agree, pretty small distinction.

    As Edge said, none of this will make or break, just go with what tastes better to you. =)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Hmm, I remembered Druids working differently, but I had it stuck in my brain that the plate wearers had the same base conversion. Good to know, but I agree, pretty small distinction.

    As Edge said, none of this will make or break, just go with what tastes better to you. =)
    Sometime we just get into these silly min-maxing routines. For example, I have 18 stam on my bear's stam set chest instead of 275 health. Because the extra 13 HPs makes a difference subconsciously, somewhere.

    The armour thing for bears has been rapidly going down, and kinda culminated with the advent of Savage Defense. That's the last time they nerfed bear armour directly, and indirectly they did so when they changed inspiration and the like to 10% flat damage instead of 10% armour, which was a nerf to baby druids and a buff to end game druids. Still hoping I can hit the armour cap somehow, if I was hell bent on stacking for it.

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