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Thread: Using Death Strike as Frost

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Using Death Strike as Frost

    So forgive me if this was answered elsewhere (I searched through all 10 pages of the excellent Satorri DK Guide and couldn't find it), but I had a thought that I wanted to bounce it off the TS community.

    One of the big problems I've seen as a healer (main is a priest) and as a DK tank, is survivability. Take HHoR for example, I can heal pretty much any tank in there, but when a DK comes along... ouch. And god forbid it's a blood spec'd tank.... The damage just gets out of control and it's harder to heal a DK tank in HHoR than ICC. Frost tanks aren't too bad, they last a lot longer than blood tanks in HHoR (from what I've experienced), but they still aren't anywhere near Pallys and Warriors.

    So here's my thought... What if you combined the survivability of frost with the self-healing of blood? Basically, replace Obliterate with Death Strike in the FU pair? I macro my strikes to RS, so I get extra threat there, and with Howling Blast, AoE doesn't seem to be a big problem. In the few runs I experimented with I took a dps hit for sure, but was still able to keep mobs sticky with some decent tps.

    Has anyone else tried this? Does anyone else think this is viable?

  2. #2
    Hmmm. Sounds to me like you are tanking with some pretty awful tanks. Correct, the Frost tree has more mitigation so to you the tank may seem like he is taking a little less damage but if a Blood tank is specced properly and using his abilities to the fullest, the healing will seem the same because of all the tank's personal healing talents. Using Death Strike as Frost is typically a big nono, at least in the DK tank circles on my server. Many Frost tanks use the single-disease method, which drops out Plague Strike and therefore joins all the FU pairs for use with Obliterate, which is our main threat generator. As a Frost DK, your Death Strike is neither specced, nor Glyphed into so the healing it provides won't justify for the loss of threat generation. It also doesn't proc Rime making it even more useless in our rotation.

    Personally I don't see how a Blood tank was even able to hold any semblance of aggro in H HoR anyway. Ah, the AoE threat instance of hell...

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Blood in H HoR does just fine, jjust AoE tanking in Blood takes a bit of getting used to. In H HoR, i put down DnD just as they start running to us, I Death Grip the mage or rifleman, and IT-PS-Pest. Then Blood Boil when my rune is back up, after that is mostly clear sailing since by the time you get the mobs down in most runs, your DnD is already up, and you can just recast it for the next group.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    H HoR as blood is fine if you know what your doing... More about which mob to kill first and fast than anything else... If the DK's you are running with are having survival problems well.. lots of DK'S need to come to tankspot is all I have to say.
    As to your original question. Short answer no. Not much longer answer.. you would be gimping either tree by going down far enough into each to pick up anything exceptionally useful

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    I've been running multiple dailies per day when I can to feed all my 80s emblems and I have come to this conclusions:

    1.) 90% of DK tanks I meet in randoms (Reckoning) have specs that are very ill-advised. Usually this is more about threat, but the spec choices make me question their class proficiency.
    2.) Most DK tanks in randoms are there to gear up, I've come across *very* few well-geared DK tanks (which makes sense as they're probably only running 1 a day each anyway). This means they have weak gear so they're particularly vulnerable.

    As a DK tank I have tanked HoR without incident. DKs have no particular reason to take more damage than any of the other tanks, so it probably falls to the particulars of the group and whether or not the DK actually uses his CDs smartly or at all (particularly AMS, I'm stunned by how many tanks just don't use it).

    To answer your question though, DS as Frost is not usually a smart idea, here is why:
    1.) Of the 3 specs it will heal for the least, *but* 10% is not horrible if you really need the heal.
    2.) DS as Frost will be very painful for your threat because the heal might not be too much smaller, but the damage will be significantly smaller without the Blood buffs, *and* using it will be in place of Obliterate which will also then *not* have a chance to proc Rime for still more damage.

    The net effect is that you are essentially consuming an FU pair for a fraction of the threat in order to get a little heal. Like I said above, 10% is nothing to shake a stick at, but I would not use it if threat is remotely in contention. Replacing many of your FU spends with DS will cripple your threat.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #6
    I agree with Satorri. I haven't had issues tanking HHoR unless the healer is really bad. Both times I've died out of the 16 or so I've run have been from the healer switching off me to heal a hunter that doesn't know what the assist key is for when I'm tanking 4-5 of the trash mobs, and doesn't know when to FD or misdirect.

    Again I tank as frost, and in heroics use a build that lets me keep glyphed D&D down at all times as well as snap aggro from HB. I'm not super well geared yet (only 2622 atm on wow-heroes) but i've been tanking it since I was able to get a random queue for it (around a 2475) without issue.

    In my experience most people with DK's that aren't their mains are the 4th or 5th level 80 toon they play and never really learned to use the toon to it's best ability. Even if the DK is their main, generally speaking most players don't read TS, EJ, or any other sites to check specs or rotations, and most don't realize they suck because they don't know how to play the character, they blame someone else.

    Perfect example - my alt is a mage, made when Archimonde opened at release. We came as one of the "oldschool" power guilds from Shadowbane and a mess of other MMO's. Didn't really raid much before I quit, I was 3/5 Naxx 25 and 1/5 Naxx 10 gear, with a few blues and mostly level 200/213 purps on.

    I have a 2355 on wow-heroes on this toon, and GS of 4100-something. I went into a VOA 25 middle of last week and pulled 4.6k DPS overall and was #6 on overall damage for all 3 phases of the raid. There were 3 other mages in the raid, all with Gearscores from 4855 to 5125, and they didn't even come close, I was the only one in the top 10. Cookie cutter arcane spec. Blues. Haven't played my mage in 8 months. 6th in overall damage, and top 10 in DPS for all boss parses.

    It's sometimes not the type of character, it's who's at the keyboard and how much work they are willing to do outside of WoW to learn the spec, rotation, and tricks for their toons - not even getting into raw skill. I don't fool myself, I need to improve what I do every time I play, and I have good days and bad - but when it comes right down to it, WoW is full of bad players who just don't want to look in the mirror to find the root of their issues.

    Cry Havoc! And let slip the Ghosts of War..


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    2
    Thanks for the responses everyone. I appreciate people taking the time to help me sort out the theorycraft on it. I hadn't even thought about the loss of Rime.

    In regards to HHoR, I don't know Satorri. I ran that place (healing) every day for 25 days trying to get the off-hand, so I've seen a LOT of different tanks in there. Plus, our best geared tank in my guild is a blood tank. If it's a pally tanking it, I might as well go make a sandwich. Warrior or Druid, it's a decent challenge (meaning I actually stick to healing and not doing dps), nothing terrible though, still not breaking a sweat. Every time I've run with a DK... pain. The health bars just get sooo spikey and damage so sudden it gets really scary sometimes. I've run it with our blood tank a few times and every time it's complete touch and go for most of the waves (and he knows what he's doing, just runs out of cooldowns).

    Anyway, this is off topic, but I do with there was something to help DK's with survivability more in heroics, since they get all the same gear choices as Pally's and Warriors, but none of the mitigation of shield block.

    Thanks again for the insights.

  8. #8
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    as a frost tank the only time I ever take good damage in hor is when I get stunned and there are three mobs beating on my back. Which often you cant do a thing about other than that situation a PW:s and a cool down will get me through most of a wave.
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  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    For what it's worth Melchizedeck, I have tanked it with all 4 tank classes (though only Blood spec as a DK) and healed it with all the healing class/specs but my Holy spec for my Paladin, and I didn't really notice a difference.

    Really what I have noticed is that there is a lot of damage to be had and what makes all the difference only has to do with the tank as far as their abilities to pick up all of the adds. So long as the tank is taking all the heat it is just a matter of being able to counter the debuffs. If you can dispel poisons and to a lesser extent magic, there is only the usual ouchies.

    The one thing I can think of that might intensify that that a healer couldn't counter is if Flamestrike's aren't interrupted and the tank stands in it. That's an extra 3k dmg every couple seconds.

    I suppose there is some merit to the idea of Block mechanics. Against lots of small trash the blocks at their current scale can be pretty generous.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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