+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Losing Impale / DW for Imp Demo - is it worth it?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    63

    Losing Impale / DW for Imp Demo - is it worth it?

    So the title says it all. I'm debating the idea of dumping those two abilities to pick up Imp Demo for upcoming hard modes in ICC and was wondering your guys thoughts on this.

    Currently DW accounts for about 7-8% of my dmg output, but I'm not sure how much threat that will translate in to. So far everything seems pretty straight forward in regards to boss fights, not much needed in AoE threat holding and I have a 2nd spec I specifically use for AoE tanking due to add tanking on Anub.

    I'm leaning towards doing it, but I'm curious as to other peoples input on it.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,420
    I've used it since late ulduar, never heard much complaints about threat in my own guild, i'd like to have the impale/dw sure, but since there's no one else in my raid to put up the debuff, i gotta do it myself

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    1,675
    If you have ret/prot paladins in your raid with regularity, they can spec vindication for a much smaller sacrifice.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,420
    in my 10 mans, there is no ret pally =T

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Your question is a threat vs survival question. =)

    Like Kaze said, if you don't have another source of the AP reduction then it's a survival value worth taking if you're not at all concerned about threat. They aren't to the same end though, so it's sort of more like do I want apples or oranges with lunch today.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    63
    Does Vindication bring the same reduction as imp demo though? Threat really is a non-issue. Those that climb close have a shedding ability and I just adjust vig when needing during combat if I see some even remotely climbing close to me.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by markv View Post
    Does Vindication bring the same reduction as imp demo though?
    2/2 Vindication is the same as 5/5 Improved Demo Shout. The issue is can you 100% of the time ensure that the person with Vindication is..

    A: On your raid
    B: On your target often enough to refresh
    and C: Not dead or disconnected

    If threat is not an issue, being able to apply your own fully powered debuffs is recommended because it eliminates any chance that the person whom normally applies it won't be able to.

    If you need to evaluate the effectiveness of those talent investments read this: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...718#post242718

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    123
    I've been specced into improved demo shout and commanding presence since ulduar. I rarely have aggro issues on bosses.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    533
    Bring both, swap into DW-spec for fights where you need more threat and use Imp Demo build together with other survival tools for everything else.
    Crommi | Archaic Order | Lightning's Blade EU

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,527
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenier View Post
    2/2 Vindication is the same as 5/5 Improved Demo Shout. The issue is can you 100% of the time ensure that the person with Vindication is..

    A: On your raid
    B: On your target often enough to refresh
    and C: Not dead or disconnected

    If threat is not an issue, being able to apply your own fully powered debuffs is recommended because it eliminates any chance that the person whom normally applies it won't be able to.

    If you need to evaluate the effectiveness of those talent investments read this: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...718#post242718
    Actually I think imp demo ends up being like 3 AP reduced more than vindication, its' basically so vindication won't overwrite imp demo, same with imp demoralizing roar with druids. It's really not big enough to make a huge difference, just sayin'
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    226
    Vindication at 2/2 should be 544 or something similar and Demo Shout / Roar is 575 when talented. In practical game terms tho it shouldn't make a difference.

    For that matter, a Hunter Bird should be around 575 also since they got the buff a patch or two ago, and that's out of the box no talents spent.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,411
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenier View Post
    2/2 Vindication is the same as 5/5 Improved Demo Shout. The issue is can you 100% of the time ensure that the person with Vindication is..

    A: On your raid
    B: On your target often enough to refresh
    and C: Not dead or disconnected

    If threat is not an issue, being able to apply your own fully powered debuffs is recommended because it eliminates any chance that the person whom normally applies it won't be able to.

    If you need to evaluate the effectiveness of those talent investments read this: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...718#post242718
    If the person is dead/disconnected, or on a different target for a while, you can use normal Demo shout to fill in for the interim. You'll take more damage, but if you have vindication most of the time, the few times you have to use untalented demo shout are probably worth it for the Deep Wounds, imo.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Considering Deep Wounds is such a massive part of our TPS, I would say the loss is far too high to justify the gains when it can be provided much easier by others.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    855
    From what I read in the past, 5/5 imp demo provides a 1ap decrease over 2/2 vindication. This basically means that it will override the paladin debuff, but they provide nearly identical results. If you have a ret pally and dps warrior in your raid, they should be providing these buffs/debuffs since it is FAR easier for them to work into their spec than a prot warrior. It also takes no extra effort for a paladin to keep vindication up, where it costs us a gcd every so often (and requires us to remember to keep it up). Also, for most people, 10man bosses really don't require the use of imp demo or imp commanding. It would probably be best to just stick with your normal DW spec, even if you don't run with a pally/dpswarr in your 10mans, unless you are having major difficulty surviving a specific 10man boss.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    5
    imo - it's a fury warrior that usually specs into 5/5 Imp Demo because there isn't a lot of other good places to put it, and it saves from the tank having to spend a GCD on something like that every 30 seconds. While I don't have threat issues (once the fight is up and running and dps aren't being stupid), I still try to stay focused on my rotation, and popping DS just isn't part of it. Sure, in 10 mans, not likely to have a fury warrior, and if so he/she may not be speced into it. I will then settle on non-imp DS as I think of it.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Considering Deep Wounds is such a massive part of our TPS, I would say the loss is far too high to justify the gains when it can be provided much easier by others.
    While I won't disagree that it can be a considerable amount of our threat, it is actually, in my opinion, easier for a prot warrior to maintain the debuff on any target compared to anyone else who can provide it except for druids. The fact that it puts up the debuff on all targets in range without having to attack it can be a difference on say Anub HM for instance.

    I typically run with two tanking builds, one survival with Imp Demo and Commanding Presence and the other a threat build with Impale and Deep Wounds. However, I realize that not everyone has the luxury of using two tank specs so for the majority of fights (current ones at least since we don't know ICC heroic modes yet) a ret paladin providing the debuff is usually enough if you have that option.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    The biggest issue, really, is the the bonus is very non-tangible. There are very few test results to actually give a firm value to those talent points spent. Yes, it reduces damage taken--but by how much? The value isn't consistant across abilities (re: GC's comment some time ago about it having a massive impact on Thorim's Unbalancing Strikes, for instance.)

    I know for a fact, though, that I would struggle with TPS with the performance of some of the people in my raid on certain fights without Impale/Deep Wounds, and that is quite tangible to me. I also know that other people in the raid can get the improved buffs with a lesser tangible loss to their performance.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,022
    One also has to consider that not taking the talent doesn't negate using Demo Shout, so all the perks sicness mentioned still apply to the base ability. It more becomes a trade of the extra DPS/TPS for a slightly higher intake of DTPS from extreneous adds (since the main target could be Demo'd possibly by another class). It's a totally different level of comparison if you got the ability solely through the talent points.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    The biggest issue, really, is the the bonus is very non-tangible. There are very few test results to actually give a firm value to those talent points spent. Yes, it reduces damage taken--but by how much? The value isn't consistant across abilities (re: GC's comment some time ago about it having a massive impact on Thorim's Unbalancing Strikes, for instance.)
    By adding a talent point to the Shout this changes the base reduction in maximum hit by a very small percentage, my math gets me .8% and the minimum by 1.2% or roughly 1% averaged. This average reduction continues all the way to 5/5 talented, there is a slight curve to the reduction which makes it just under 1% per point on base melee attacks.

    Special attacks which factor their damage based off the NPCs Weapon Damage such as Thorim's Unbalancing Strike, are subject to different returns based on the particular NPC's weapon damage value, which varies from one NPC to another based on their attack power value. IE, not all NPCs with comparable damage have the same attack power.

    In any event, on trash conclusions are consistent across a wide array of NPCs, and because of this behaviour, it is likewise reasonable to assume that most Boss level NPCs function similarly, with slight variances of course in terms of how much of their attack power is used to Calculate Weapon Damage, which is why Mexxena's damage is only lowered by 14.8% instead of the expected 15.55%.

    Even being totally generous and assuming a margin of error of 2%, you are looking at a minimum of 13% damage reduction on a fully powered AP debuff, roughly 5% of which is coming from Talented Improvements in Improved Demo Shout or Feral Aggression.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    That Place Above the USA
    Posts
    2,282
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    One also has to consider that not taking the talent doesn't negate using Demo Shout, so all the perks sicness mentioned still apply to the base ability. It more becomes a trade of the extra DPS/TPS for a slightly higher intake of DTPS from extreneous adds (since the main target could be Demo'd possibly by another class). It's a totally different level of comparison if you got the ability solely through the talent points.
    This. Even with a ret pally, I'm throwing up demo roar until all the mobs get hit. Remember, Vindication is not 100% chance of happening, but given the number of times a ret pally hits things (especially with Divine Storm a'flying) it doesn't take long for it to go up, but it DOES take some time. But then it goes back to ramp up time, part of the equation for glyphing Devastate. I don't mind sparing some rage and a GCD to throw up a weaker roar until it gets replaced with a 2/2 vindication.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts