How do DR's Really Work?

[vaen]

So I've read that dodge dr's to 88%, parry dr's to 47%, effectivley making parry a dumb stat to stat even with the 40% extra white damage hit on next swing.
We don't know what miss dr's to, but why is it even mentioned when we are talking about avoidance, isn't miss % calculated on the bosses side, not ours. What does block DR to? Does the dr counter reset every X seconds?

Also, isn't the dodge you get from defense rating diminished differently than pure dodge stat?

Thanks in advance.

[Bashal]

There's a thread or two on this already.

Block rating has no diminishing returns.

There is a base 5% miss + racials (night elf) + talents (dk's frigid dreadplate) + miss% added from defense rating which contributes to your avoidance. (someone straighten me out if I got those figures a little wrong.)

Parry and dodge diminishing returns doesn't mean that if you parry a lot or dodge a lot, subsequent chances to parry or dodge are reduced. This is a common misconception. What is meant is that each point of parry or dodge rating is worth less than the previous one; it adds less to your parry or dodge %. Because parry maxes out at a much lower percentage, that means stacking parry rating gets you less bang for your buck than adding dodge rating. The benefit gained, point for point, diminishes faster for parry than dodge.

Note: talents that add to parry or dodge % are not affected by diminishing returns. This is because they don't add dodge or parry rating, they just directly add to the % chance.

[vaen]

Thanks bashal you answered a few of my questions, so basically dodge is useless after 88%...but there are some questions that still remain.
Q) Isn't the dodge you get from defense rating diminished differently than pure dodge stat?


So since block has no dr's doesn't that make it a better/same stat than dodge at some point. ( I know block doesn't mitigate all the damage, just some )

Also, why isn't expertise ever talked about in mitigation posts? 26 is the paladin soft cap, if the boss parries you, they get 40% extra white damage. Is it just assumed that everyone is at soft cap for expertise?

[jere]

dodge is diminished at the percentage, not at the rating. So it doesn't matter if you get it from agility, defense rating, or dodge rating, as all have the same DR applied to the percentage.

Also, a "slight" misconception is that you no longer get dodge after 88.129021%. That value is the asymptote of the equation, meaning, if you stacked infinite dodge, you would end up with 88.13% dodge at the end. If you put on 88.13% dodge you might actually get something in the low 80's%, though I haven't run the math.

It's a small distinction, but the 88.13% refers to the result of the equation and not the input.

EDIT: Something else to consider:

IF you are a paladin or warrior, you can come into gearing situations where parry is better than dodge. This happens because you stack so much dodge that the DR for it actually gets worse than your current parry DR. Once you start adding parry, that levels out again and eventually dodge will get better. A good rule of thumb (again as a warrior or paladin) is:

(charsheet_dodge% - 10%) COMPARED TO 1.875*(charsheet_parry%-10%)

If one is higher, then stack the other. Balancing them gives you the most avoidance per rating point.

Those 10% values actually vary by class and race, but are all very close to 10% to make it a decent rule of thumb. For Deathknights, you just stack dodge and forget parry (due to the parry contribution of Forceful Deflection I think, if I am remembering the ability name correctly)

[drae]

...if the boss parries you, they get 40% extra white damage.

Isn't it a faster swing timer? not *higher* damage? Just for my own clarity, because I feel confuzzled atm.

[vaen]

Isn't it a faster swing timer? not *higher* damage? Just for my own clarity, because I feel confuzzled atm.

I've heard both, but in the sticky where it has the table of points and % it says 40% extra white damage.
This sticky... http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...idance-ratings



Now only two questions remain....

Q) So since block has no dr's doesn't that make it a better/same stat than dodge at some point. ( I know block doesn't mitigate all the damage, just some )

Q) Also, why isn't expertise ever talked about in mitigation posts? 26 is the paladin soft cap, if the boss parries you, they get 40% extra white damage. Is it just assumed that everyone is at soft cap for expertise?

[Bashal]

Well, here's the thing about diminishing returns... when we say dodge caps out at 88%, it hits that cap with a quantity of dodge rating that is impossible to obtain (~100,000 dodge rating iirc). nobody will actually get anywhere near 88% dodge. Ever. It's more of a theoretical maximum than an actual, obtainable cap.

There really isn't a point where block wins out over dodge, where you would want to deliberately stack block value or rating instead of dodge.

Expertise does also function as a kind of mitigation, although many bosses have parry haste turned off, and those that do haste... well, it wasn't so much the parry haste itself that killed you, but the possibility of getting a crushing blow, which can no longer happen.

[jere]

on the block question:
Theoretically probably there is such a point, but I am not sure it would be a practical one. It could be, I just haven't run the math on it. Block rating is good for getting unhittable for some encounters (heroic anub adds, but not so much for anything in ICC cause of chill of the throne).

On the expertise question:
Here is a good thread at another site (we have a similar thread somewhere here at Tankspot):
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

[Bodasafa]

Q) So since block has no dr's doesn't that make it a better/same stat than dodge at some point. ( I know block doesn't mitigate all the damage, just some )

If you are talking Block Rating, the issue becomes not enough high level gear that has it in the form of equips, not enough to "stack" anyway without using a specialized set that uses lower lvl gear. So the only real way to increase your Block Rating is through Defense, 0.04% per 1 Def Skill point at a time, which is not very effective.

[Synapse]

dr can be simplified as this
1) Your avoidance percentages grow slower as you get more
2) Each avoidance has a different curve, so sometimes you're better with dodge, and sometimes you're better with parry. Defense adds both but the numbers are bizarrely close so it's not usually considered over dodge or parry to balance ratings.
3) The diminishings are done at the percentage end, at that point the contribution from gear and buffs are all accounted for equally.

As jere said... if (dodgechance-10)/(parrychance-10) > 1.8, get parry. Otherwise, get dodge.

[vaen]

on the block question:
Theoretically probably there is such a point, but I am not sure it would be a practical one. It could be, I just haven't run the math on it. Block rating is good for getting unhittable for some encounters (heroic anub adds, but not so much for anything in ICC cause of chill of the throne).

On the expertise question:
Here is a good thread at another site (we have a similar thread somewhere here at Tankspot):
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

After a little research I became dissapointed that there isn't much option for block value customization. It could make the paladin and warrior a tool for more than what they are now. Block is really neglected by the designers. It almost defeats the purpose of having a shield.

[Bodasafa]

I think I recall them saying they were removing block value (and defense) in Cata. So we will really be left with just Block Rating as an addition to our avoidance. Even if I can't get huge shield slams anymore I still find something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

[Eravian]

Easiest way I can think of to explain Diminishing returns is to compare it to something that doesn't have any.

Let's take Stamina: 1 Stamina = 10 health
So 1 stamina = 10 health, 2 stamina = 20 health, 3 stamina = 30 health, etc.

If you "buy" one point of stamina, you always get the same "return", 10 health.

Now for things like Dodge, at the base we'll say they earn 1 dodge point = 1% (made this number up for comparison).
However, as you get more and more dodge, 1 dodge won't equal 1%. For simplicity, we'll say every extra point of dodge has .1% less.
So 1 dodge = 1%, 2 dodge = 1.9%, 3 dodge = 2.7%, etc.

As you "buy" more dodge, the "return" for each point gets smaller. That's why they call it a "diminishing return."

And as for Block, yeah, I wish they used it for more to. While the shield is a substantial bit of armor, and that ends up being our biggest use of it, I wouldn't mind seeing the shield become the primary source of warrior (and maybe paladin ;-) ) mitigation... but we'll see what happens when Cataclysm hits.

[drae]

I don't think the devs are ignoring block as much as listening to the community say "we don't want block".


For more info: Diminishing Returns - Avoidance
Avoidance Value of Expertise

[vaen]

I don't think the devs are ignoring block as much as listening to the community say "we don't want block".


For more info: Diminishing Returns - Avoidance
Avoidance Value of Expertise

Right, everybody wants to be OP, and wants all the tanks to be on the same playing field... I think it's quite dumb. I think there should be specialized tanks for specialized jobs. Back when WOTLK dropped they made it so there weren't very many encounters where you need X type of tank anymore because nubs couldn't reroll when they weren't getting raid spots. So let's all be the "I'm every tank class" tank.

More qq from me. Enjoy.



Druids should be dodge whores.
Warriors should be block whores.
Paladins should be hybrid.
Dk's should be parry.

Currently...
Druids are dodge whores.
Warriors are dodge whores.
Paladins are dodge whores.
Dk's are dodge whores.

......stupid.

[drae]

Right, everybody wants to be OP, and wants all the tanks to be on the same playing field... I think it's quite dumb. I think there should be specialized tanks for specialized jobs.....

....
Druids should be dodge whores.
Warriors should be block whores.
Paladins should be hybrid.
Dk's should be parry.

Currently...
Druids are stamina whores.
Warriors are stamina whores.
Paladins are stamina whores.
Dk's are stamina whores.

......stupid.

Fixt.

Also that was the way it was in TBC (well similar). It sucked. Tanking is better now. Ask any paladin how he likes actually tanking bosses.

Personally I don't think it's dumb that all tanks are equal. It's not that I want to be OP, it's that I want to be able to tank everything in the game regardless of class.... not because of it.

And it's because block actually does suck. It's like holding the yellow pages in front of you when a semi is bearing down on you. Sure it will prevent some damage... but not enough to make a difference.

[vaen]

Fixt.

Also that was the way it was in TBC (well similar). It sucked. Tanking is better now. Ask any paladin how he likes actually tanking bosses.

Personally I don't think it's dumb that all tanks are equal. It's not that I want to be OP, it's that I want to be able to tank everything in the game regardless of class.... not because of it.

And it's because block actually does suck. It's like holding the yellow pages in front of you when a semi is bearing down on you. Sure it will prevent some damage... but not enough to make a difference.

By the way you took my post out of context and said "Fixt".... I wasn't talking about gemming and socketing.. I was talking about every class now relies on dodge for main avoidance.

I've been a paladin since TBC ... back then.. if we had tons of block we were OP, then they changed our talents.

Just because block sucks now, doesn't mean they can't make it better ( for certain classes )

Even though you are a different tank doesn't mean you CANT tank everything in the game under my proposition..... it just means that another tank will be way better at it.

They made it the way it is now in WOTLK because of casual players, they want EVERYONE to see all the content really quickly... used to certain tanks were NEEDED... now it doesn't matter...... HEY YOU'RE A TANK? THATS KOOL COME TANK THIS WHOLE RAID INSTANCE FOR US.... wouldn't it be better if you needed at least TWO types of tanks in an instance... that way you never had a "MAIN" tank, but both tanks got some action. Instead of one being on adds and one being on boss the whole time....

Jeez look I'm trolling my own post.

Diminishing returns.. yea... dr's.

[Güth]

I totally agree, I much prefer sitting in Dalarn doing nothing because my guild is missing [ Insert Important Class] for [ Insert Raid]. Please Blizzard, make it back like the good 'ol days!

[Vegelus]

By the way you took my post out of context and said "Fixt".... I wasn't talking about gemming and socketing.. I was talking about every class now relies on dodge for main avoidance.

I've been a paladin since TBC ... back then.. if we had tons of block we were OP, then they changed our talents.

Was it really that different in TBC? Sure, there was no DR on avoidance ratings, but you know what? All three classes were better getting dodge instead of parry. And till parry has it's haste effect it will always be like that, because haste effect isn't (and there is no real reason for it to be) wanted by tanks. We want avoidance, we want mitigation, sometimes we want reasonable amounts of threat. Parry haste does not give us but gives us little benefit that has it's own cost = higher rating to % ratio and higher DR value (tho I'm not really sure why parry needs that low DR "cap").

Oh, and did you really liked that much being a paladin in TBC? Not being able to tank RoS, sometimes problematic Illidian. With being just a MH trashes and Felmyst P2 biatch? Not required one, to be honest, you could go (at least in MH) with some awesome warriors and bears and success without protadin.

Block in TBC was fine for warriors too, till bosses started hitting like a trucks (look at drae's comparision once again). Added with introduction of expertise and gear with it in sunwell/badges gear removed block's usefulness on boss fights.

[vaen]

Was it really that different in TBC? Sure, there was no DR on avoidance ratings, but you know what? All three classes were better getting dodge instead of parry. And till parry has it's haste effect it will always be like that, because haste effect isn't (and there is no real reason for it to be) wanted by tanks. We want avoidance, we want mitigation, sometimes we want reasonable amounts of threat. Parry haste does not give us but gives us little benefit that has it's own cost = higher rating to % ratio and higher DR value (tho I'm not really sure why parry needs that low DR "cap").

Oh, and did you really liked that much being a paladin in TBC? Not being able to tank RoS, sometimes problematic Illidian. With being just a MH trashes and Felmyst P2 biatch? Not required one, to be honest, you could go (at least in MH) with some awesome warriors and bears and success without protadin.

Right, now you can go in with one of any of the classes... If we were specialized that wouldn't be so.

I totally agree, I much prefer sitting in Dalarn doing nothing because my guild is missing [ Insert Important Class] for [ Insert Raid]. Please Blizzard, make it back like the good 'ol days!

Right, so you should have all priority over any of the other tanks in your guild because your gear is better... none of the other tanks should get in until they have your gear or better.... right?

With the introduction of dual spec, you could have tanks required dual spec dps, so that you guys can switch out when needed and still contribute without having to sit in dalaran.

With your proposition all classes should be able to do EVERYTHING...... that's not how it is... people still have to sit in dalaran because of certain class needs for x buff or x totem or simply.. you were late to raid...

If you want to play in the ball pit, go to McDonalds. ™


By the way can a mod split this where we stopped talking about DR's into, somewhere where we can qq about tank makeup.