How do DR's Really Work?

[Güth]

Right, now you can go in with one of any of the classes... If we were specialized that wouldn't be so.




Right, so you should have all priority over any of the other tanks in your guild because your gear is better... none of the other tanks should get in until they have your gear or better.... right?

With the introduction of dual spec, you could have tanks required dual spec dps, so that you guys can switch out when needed and still contribute without having to sit in dalaran.

So...this is what I'm getting from this thread:

You agreeing with the fact that paladins were situational at best (and almost never main tanks) and want that back? I'm not quite sure why you're fighting about the subject of all tanks being viable to tank every raid...would you prefer being stuck as a pocket tank only used on trash and boss fights that have adds? Are you unhappy actually contributing instead of being just a buff-bot? I'm lost.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems silly. Can this thread be locked please?

[vaen]

So...this is what I'm getting from this thread:

You agreeing with the fact that paladins were situational at best (and almost never main tanks) and want that back? I'm not quite sure why you're fighting about the subject of all tanks being viable to tank every raid...would you prefer being stuck as a pocket tank only used on trash and boss fights that have adds? Are you unhappy actually contributing instead of being just a buff-bot? I'm lost.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems silly. Can this thread be locked please?

No that's not what I'm doing, I wish you would read the thread.

--All tanks should have their specialized job
--All tanks should be able to tank everything, but not as good as the specialized
--No one tank should be the OP tank that is best for everything
--No one tank should be the suck tank that sucks at everything

I've already asked this thread to be split where we stopped talking about Dr's into somewhere where we can talk about tank makeup qq, a locked topic is going to do us any good here because everyone has already trolled the topic.

[Bodasafa]

Even though you are a different tank doesn't mean you CANT tank everything in the game under my proposition..... it just means that another tank will be way better at it.

No tank wants this. Except by your statements maybe you. How would you feel if each class had the differences your talking about and the class you play is the one that is not "way better at it", what if they were the worst and what if that applied to almost every boss encounter.

You would then be either:
A) Sat
B) Forced to use your Duel Spec as a mediocre DPS/Heals since its not your main that you gear up the most.
C) Forced to tank the adds or something that does less damage, since your not as good at surviving while tanking the boss.

Right now the classes are close to having the same capabilities. It's hard to make them to different or you have 1-2 that reign supreme over the others. Conversely you can't make them too alike or we just end up being the same class with different ability names slapped on the actions.

It's a hard balance, I give the Dev's credit for trying the best they can to make us all good at what our role is while trying to keep us unique.

[Bodasafa]

Right, so you should have all priority over any of the other tanks in your guild because your gear is better... none of the other tanks should get in until they have your gear or better.... right?

With the introduction of dual spec, you could have tanks required dual spec dps, so that you guys can switch out when needed and still contribute without having to sit in dalaran.

With your proposition all classes should be able to do EVERYTHING...... that's not how it is... people still have to sit in dalaran because of certain class needs for x buff or x totem or simply.. you were late to raid..]

This sounds to me like you have issues getting into raids. If your late for a raid you should be sat, if you can't be on time then someone who is should be brought. If there are other tanks in the guild with better gear and they have been there longer, thus being established in the guild, then yes they should get to tank over someone who is new with less gear. Thats just how it goes. If your looking for a #1 or #2 tank slot in a guild then you have to go to a lower progressed guild in need of one. Or you might get lucky when there is an opening in a more progressed guild, though they tend to keep their tanks for a reason.

As far as Duel specs, no one likes to be forced into an off role, they have a main spec for a reason. That's the role they want to play, what they applied to a guild as, what they were accepted to a guild as.

[vaen]

No tank wants this. Except by your statements maybe you. How would you feel if each class had the differences your talking about and the class you play is the one that is not "way better at it", what if they were the worst and what if that applied to almost every boss encounter.

You would then be either:
A) Sat
B) Forced to use your Duel Spec as a mediocre DPS/Heals since its not your main that you gear up the most.
C) Forced to tank the adds or something that does less damage, since your not as good at surviving while tanking the boss.

Right now the classes are close to having the same capabilities. It's hard to make them to different or you have 1-2 that reign supreme over the others. Conversely you can't make them too alike or we just end up being the same class with different ability names slapped on the actions.

It's a hard balance, I give the Dev's credit for trying the best they can to make us all good at what our role is while trying to keep us unique.

A) Did I not say, "Don't make one of the tanks suck"
B) You will still get gear for your main spec unless you're in a tarded guild.
C) People are forced to do that now.

Sounds like you just want ez mode.

This sounds to me like you have issues getting into raids. If your late for a raid you should be sat, if you can't be on time then someone who is should be brought. If there are other tanks in the guild with better gear and they have been there longer, thus being established in the guild, then yes they should get to tank over someone who is new with less gear. Thats just how it goes. If your looking for a #1 or #2 tank slot in a guild then you have to go to a lower progressed guild in need of one. Or you might get lucky when there is an opening in a more progressed guild, though they tend to keep their tanks for a reason.

As far as Duel specs, no one likes to be forced into an off role, they have a main spec for a reason. That's the role they want to play, what they applied to a guild as, what they were accepted to a guild as.

NO NO NO and NO.

I don't have a darn bit of a problem getting in to any raids, I am the leader of my guild and tank every boss encounter.
I'm trying to propose an idea to make the game harder, but seems like everyone wants ez mode.

[Kazeyonoma]

I don't see how making niche tanking groups makes the game harder... by making recruitment harder? by keeping raid members in your guild harder? by forcing every MT in every guild level 4 tanking classes so his guild can progress smoothly? I don't see how this is "harder", and nothing has changed in WoW since the original release, all bosses, are essentially rehashes of other, tanks tank things, somethings you kite things, somethings there's adds, sometimes you take cleave hits, sometimes you tank swap, sometimes you have to wear resist gear. That's the nature of the game. Maybe cataclysm will introduce all new mechanics to this, but unless they start introducing physics into our tanking, I hardly see how much will change in terms of "how we do things".

Don't stand in the fire explains about 90% of raid content... It's not that we're requesting ez mode, it's that your suggestions, create niches which sideline classes on the majority of boss fights, look at TBC and paladin tanks, or bear tanks.

[Bodasafa]

Now take it easy. I just commented on stuff You said and drew some pretty clear conclusions from that.

I'm not looking for "ez mode" or trying to Harp on you, I'm trying to explain to you why your idea won't work.

--All tanks should have their specialized job
--All tanks should be able to tank everything, but not as good as the specialized
.

Those 2 things are in total contradiction of each other. You cannot have specialized tanks that excel over others and expect all tanks to be able to tank everything equally as good. It's one or the other.

[Güth]

Ok, this is not meant in a rude or insulting way...but are you basing your logic off 5man instances and not actual raiding? The only reason I ask is because I've checked your listed character's armory and I don't see any raiding done, just some 5mans.

I'll be the first to say, my character's gear is awful, so I'm not trying to say "lol I'm better than you" in any way...it's just things change when you move up to raids, a perfect example is Block Rating...awesome for 5mans because it can make you nigh invulnerable to physical damage...however that is not the case in raids, bosses will smack you for near full damage if you try stacking block for an encounter.

Niches are not such a big deal in 5man instances, in raids it can mean the difference between tanking or being forced into a spec you don't want to play, or risk being benched for someone more compliant.

[vaen]

Ok, this is not meant in a rude or insulting way...but are you basing your logic off 5man instances and not actual raiding? The only reason I ask is because I've checked your listed character's armory and I don't see any raiding done, just some 5mans.

I'll be the first to say, my character's gear is awful, so I'm not trying to say "lol I'm better than you" in any way...it's just things change when you move up to raids, a perfect example is Block Rating...awesome for 5mans because it can make you nigh invulnerable to physical damage...however that is not the case in raids, bosses will smack you for near full damage if you try stacking block for an encounter.

Niches are not such a big deal in 5man instances, in raids it can mean the difference between tanking or being forced into a spec you don't want to play, or risk being benched for someone more compliant.

No this is my second paladin... let me give you a little history on me and tanking.

I leveled a horde BE paladin TBC - 70 ran kara, ssc.. not much more.
Continued to level him to 80 WOTLK and tanked naxx, ulduar, ToC.. quit playing him
Leveled an undead DK to 80 tanked naxx, ulduar hardmodes, ToC.. quit playing him

I haven't stepped into ICC yet because....

Now I'm back after ICC came out and I leveled a Human Paladin... I just hit 80 on him 3 days ago. I'm running instances as ret with my brother and his druid tank to get my t9 for tank set..



Me and my brother just want more diversity between tanks is all.. we think it would make the game more fun.
Diversity that exists now---

DK's -- DG and spell intterupt 2h tanking 1h dual weild tanking

Druids -- tanking without shield/warrior like/leather

Warrior -- intercept, shield slam?, that one aoe thing that reduces attack power.. don't know haven't played a warrior much

Paladin -- Consecrate, extra life*(that new talent we got not to long ago i forgot what its called)


There is great diversity between the DK tank and the others... but warrior and druid are so much alike.

I don't see how making niche tanking groups makes the game harder... by making recruitment harder? by keeping raid members in your guild harder? by forcing every MT in every guild level 4 tanking classes so his guild can progress smoothly? I don't see how this is "harder", and nothing has changed in WoW since the original release, all bosses, are essentially rehashes of other, tanks tank things, somethings you kite things, somethings there's adds, sometimes you take cleave hits, sometimes you tank swap, sometimes you have to wear resist gear. That's the nature of the game. Maybe cataclysm will introduce all new mechanics to this, but unless they start introducing physics into our tanking, I hardly see how much will change in terms of "how we do things".

Don't stand in the fire explains about 90% of raid content... It's not that we're requesting ez mode, it's that your suggestions, create niches which sideline classes on the majority of boss fights, look at TBC and paladin tanks, or bear tanks.

I see what you are saying about it making recruitment harder, but cmon, "one tank does it all"? New mechanics would be nice is all I'm getting at.

[Bashal]

Me and my brother just want more diversity between tanks is all...There is great diversity between the DK tank and the others... but warrior and druid are so much alike.

If you mean they both use rage and have a charge, yeah, they're alike. Warriors have better interrupts and more stuns (yeah yeah only on trash) than a bear. Warriors have tclap and cleave, etc., to aggro multiple mobs but bears have lolspamswipe.

That seems different enough to me. If you add too many differences, you start making their strengths and weaknesses more pronounced... and before you know it, you're looking for y tank for boss x, because even though you can get by with the other tank types, you want the least fuss and bother so you go with what works best.

If you are that tank type that works out the best, you're happy. If you aren't....you get sat.

I see what you are saying about it making recruitment harder, but cmon, "one tank does it all"? New mechanics would be nice is all I'm getting at.

One tank doesn't do it all though, in a raid. Two to three tanks do it all.

[Eravian]

I've got it! They could set it in that when you fight a boss, it records what type of tank class you used. Then the next time you fight him, he's gained some experience with that tank class, so that he hits harder and you generate less aggro. If you use the same class too many times on the boss, the boss no longer pays attention to that tank at all, just one-shots him and moves on.

That way the tanking classes have diminishing returns! BOOM! The thread's back on track.

[Vegelus]

Fun idea .
But it would bring us back to need of recruiting all tank classes just because of their classes. Tanks would be again "specialised" against boss X, but only at some period of time, making that "specialization" random/time based.