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Thread: Two Questions About Dungeon Difficulty...

  1. #1
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    Two Questions About Dungeon Difficulty...

    Greetings TankSpotters,

    I have a question regarding dungeon difficulty. I'm working on a bear tank right now & have been leveling using the LFG tool. I have tanked every dungeon up to SM - GY multiple times & have yet to see anything difficult. I understand, though, that with the level of gear that LFG grinders have, no dungeon is going to be really difficult for a while. This brings me to my two questions...

    1) When do the dungeons get difficult enough that class roles & being able to play your class matter?

    I've seen DPS run in & not die. I've seen mages AoE to pull & not die. I've even had to heal myself on a few pulls (on my paladin) because the healer went AFK without telling anyone. I would so much rather have the order attributed to the dungeon etiquette rules. Tank pulls, DPS attack skull, healer isn't AFK. So, when do the dungeons become difficult enough that these things will most likely cause a wipe?

    2) When do you start hitting bosses that you can't down?

    So far, no boss has been difficult. Even some of the bosses (the farting pig in Mara comes to mind) that have a difficult mechanic, you can explain it in detail & usually in two or three attempts the problem child has figured it out. So, when do you get to see a boss where there's some limitation & it can't be downed? Maybe the DPS isn't doing enough damage, maybe the tank doesn't have good enough gear or is threat capping the DPS. I'd like to have a boss really stick it to me so I'm forced to improve. It'd be like a challenge that I'd be forced to overcome.

    Thanks for your help, TankSpot community.

  2. #2
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    1) Northrend, with the possible exception of level 70 heroics. Even then, if you don't mind wiping a lot, you can still clear the stuff with some pretty epic fail players in your group.

    Reasoning: every expansion, talent trees are redone, resulting in an overall buffing of classes (generally speaking). Sometimes instances and older raids get nerfed, too. This results in old content becoming ludicrously easy.

    2) That would be in raids, not 5-mans.

    Reasoning: Northrend heroics are easier than their Outlands counterparts were. They are all fairly easy, some are just irritating due to their mechanics, more than being truly hard. While the earlier raids in WotLK are not really all that hard either, having 10 or 25 people together just amplifies any lack of skill or coordination among individuals, which leads to hitting a brick wall.
    Last edited by Bashal; 01-27-2010 at 11:22 AM.

  3. #3
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    Well, that's certainly unfortunate.

    I was hoping that eventually there would be a "weeding out" period where the DPSers with ADD would start getting rocked when they run into a pack of mobs & pull aggro. I knew it would be a difficult transition period, but one that would better prepare them for later dungeons & raids. Plus, and this might make me sound like a bad person, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to know that as a tank, I'm actually 'needed' to tank. Right now, I just feel like a sub-par DPS class with a little more armor than everyone else.

    As for hitting walls in raids. UGH! Why do we have to wait that long? I would like to see more glass ceilings where people have to make an effort to upgrade their class. Then, once they're invested & we know they're making effort they'll be more respected in the higher level runs. It's be a decent change from warlocks showing up in vendor gear putting out 10 dps in Stocks.

    As for the raids, if it's a matter of gear, which your post implies that it's more of a matter of coordination, then I can already see a headache when I try to run Naxx10 a year after its release. I'll be the undergeared tank that wants to actually tank it & enjoy the run & there will be 9 people around me wondering why this noob is leading when they could just get an ICC geared tank to speed run them. As for a coordination issue, that makes me cringe, too. If we all gear ourselves accordingly, it would be a pain to know that the only reason we can't beat this guy is because someone can't NOT stand in green shit or jump when they're supposed to. I mean, I don't want to gear & get an instant ROFLstomp on a raid boss, but it would be nice to have it balanced so that everyone's around 1% health when the raid boss dies & everyone performed amazingly.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goins2754 View Post
    As for hitting walls in raids. UGH! That makes me cringe. If it's a matter of gear, which your post implies that it's more of a matter of coordination...
    Well, to be a bit more verbose, it depends on the raid boss.

    Something like patchwerk, back in the day, it was a stress test on everyone: tanks getting smacked hard, healers managing mana so they don't oom too early, DPS having to put out enough damage to beat the enrage timer. But with the easy access to t9 gear now, you can really just run in and roflstomp him. I went into naxx10 with 8 people not too long ago, 1 of the DPSers was in all greens, and we still got the speed kill.

    Something like heigan, where people have to do something as simple as run back and forth to avoid poison popping up through cracks in the floor, you can easily wipe, overgeared or not, unless enough people have a minimal level of coordination. Sadly, many don't.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goins2754 View Post
    Well, that's certainly unfortunate.

    I was hoping that eventually there would be a "weeding out" period where the DPSers with ADD would start getting rocked when they run into a pack of mobs & pull aggro. I knew it would be a difficult transition period, but one that would better prepare them for later dungeons & raids. Plus, and this might make me sound like a bad person, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside to know that as a tank, I'm actually 'needed' to tank. Right now, I just feel like a sub-par DPS class with a little more armor than everyone else.

    As for hitting walls in raids. UGH! Why do we have to wait that long? I would like to see more glass ceilings where people have to make an effort to upgrade their class. Then, once they're invested & we know they're making effort they'll be more respected in the higher level runs. It's be a decent change from warlocks showing up in vendor gear putting out 10 dps in Stocks.

    As for the raids, if it's a matter of gear, which your post implies that it's more of a matter of coordination, then I can already see a headache when I try to run Naxx10 a year after its release. I'll be the undergeared tank that wants to actually tank it & enjoy the run & there will be 9 people around me wondering why this noob is leading when they could just get an ICC geared tank to speed run them. As for a coordination issue, that makes me cringe, too. If we all gear ourselves accordingly, it would be a pain to know that the only reason we can't beat this guy is because someone can't NOT stand in green shit or jump when they're supposed to. I mean, I don't want to gear & get an instant ROFLstomp on a raid boss, but it would be nice to have it balanced so that everyone's around 1% health when the raid boss dies & everyone performed amazingly.
    What you want is TBC raiding, where your guild hits a brick wall on a boss that simply will not die and you can't go anywhere higher until you get it?

    Normal mode content is not tuned for uber elite video game masters, so after you're geared you'll want to do hard modes. Somewhere around the sunwell badge gear patch heroics became about farming for badges - not challenging gaming encounters. Only way you are going to get the challenge you're looking for is to hit the ICC heroics in blue gear - that might make them something similar to the pre-nerf TBC heroics in level of difficulty.
    Last edited by kolben; 01-27-2010 at 04:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalken View Post
    "I'll let the dragon hit me in the face, you stab it in the ass."

  6. #6
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    I don't know what I want, Kolben. I've never done any end-game raiding - TBC or otherwise.

    What you described, though, doesn't sound fun. Maybe there could be several wings you could attempt at once so that you don't hit one boss & be done with it. That way you might be able to clear wings A & B, but you can only get to the third boss in wing C & the first boss in wing D. That would sound like a compromise. Then again, I've never experienced hard modes, either. So maybe that's what I want & I just don't know it.

    Actually, I do know what I want. Another sauce with my McNuggets. Why do you get 2 for a 10 piece & only 3 for a 20 piece? Do I need to specifically order 2 10-pieces? But I digress...

  7. #7
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    While leveling, the instances in Hellfire might start becoming tough-ish. Especially Shattered Halls @70 in quest gear (heroic version).
    After that, it's again smooth sailing all the way to Northrend till you start farming badges and then want to go into the new ICC heroics to fill out the missing spots that you cant get with badges. Heroic Halls of Reflection is a major wake-up call (even that one can be outgeared pretty fast though)

    As for raiding, i still believe Ulduar is a very well designed instance with a wide variety of boss mechanics. Ofcourse with top end gear available now it's easy to blast through it without thinking, but i'd be inclined to say that the hardmode versions still give a hard time if you're not paying attention. And if you manage to grind your way to an Algalon key, he still smacked us hard the other day when we took 3 new members in ICC gear into there for fun. I find it still one of the most entertaining and straenous fights around.

    Also, ICC raid is pretty interesting. Not as immersing as Ulduar but definitely fun & interesting. Gear to go into it is available through easy farming too, so you really should check it out.

  8. #8
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    For class matters and ability to play your class I suggest the following:

    1: Get to level 70
    2: Gather a all-level-70-group
    3: Do Magister's Terrace normal so you get attuned for heroic mode
    4: Do Magister's Terrace heroic

    (Have not been there since TBC so I don't know if it has been nerfed in any way.)
    "We have two ears and one mouth for a reason." - Buddhist belief.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goins2754 View Post
    I'll be the undergeared tank that wants to actually tank it & enjoy the run & there will be 9 people around me wondering why this noob is leading when they could just get an ICC geared tank to speed run them.
    Generally speaking any ICC geared tank will not be doing Naxx unless its the raid weekly for their 5 Frosts. So you wont have to worry about competing with them for a shot to tank Naxx. Depending how fast you progress up through the raids you may see that when you get to ToC. Once you have honed your skills and worked your way up I would suggest looking for a raiding guild (if raiding is what you want to do with your game time). That way you can avoid PuGs that want over geared tanks for no other reason than they want fast and easy loot.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

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