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Thread: Bear ICC gemming question

  1. #1
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    Bear ICC gemming question

    Ok, I've been reading a lot about how to gem for ICC and with the 20% dodge debuff I'm a little confused. I read that when blizzard did this for Kael'Thas, all bears just gemmed straight agility in order to keep their avoidance to where it needed to be. However, here's my worry for doing that. I'm scared that if I do that I'll be gimped down to like 40k health fully buffed and I'll be smacked around like a rag doll. I've always been told just gem straight stam, your dodge will always be fine, but the 20% dodge reduction makes me rethink that. Also it seems like it would also solve a few close calls with threat as well. So, here's my question, with my gear, (armory linked below) should I be using straight stam and just take the agility as it comes, or should I combo the two with purple gems, or should I go straight agility?

    I'm looking to do ICC 10 and possibly ICC 10 heroic later on. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...moon&cn=Taiyri

    Edit: Can a mod please move this to the HALP forum? I'm retarded >.<
    Last edited by DurzoBlint; 01-25-2010 at 09:43 AM.

  2. #2
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    IMO you should always gem straight agi, and only get stam when you need to to in order to get socket bonuses. Tanking is only my offspec, but I'm almost completely gemmed\enchanted for agi and I am still sitting at around 34k hps unbuffed, 42% dodge, and close to 50% crit I think. With a few upgrades I'm looking at closing in on 50% dodge in the near future (I can already hit 55%+ with evasion proc and my glyph of indom). Trust me, as a druid you will get plenty of stam from whats already on your gear. It is completely pointless to have like 60k hps raid buffed if you get hit all the time. Its much better to be lower hps but dodge more than you get hit (plus the shielding \ healing from crits and the armor reduce dmg even when you get hit).

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ow&cn=Rudolpho

    See mine? My hps are way lower than yours but I have no problem tanking the first wing of ICC10 at all, and only one in 25 man I dont want to mess with is Marrowgar, but my gear is a bit low for that anyway.

    2nd wing on the other hand, druids will need really good gear to handle the hits from Festergut. Rotface is a wimp, but fester can eat a 50k hp tank pretty fast once hes at full power.

    Edit: I'm gemmed wrong in a few spots btw, and will be changing those soon. I've been raiding ICC since it opened and consider myself a good player, but I just found out a few days ago that you can put any gem in any slot, its just the socket bonuses wont be applied if its the wrong color...I'm not worried about losing attack power or haste socket bonuses haha.

  3. #3
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolpho View Post
    IMO you should always gem straight agi
    Druids are not by design avoidance tanks. To make up for the lack of avoidance, we have high mitigation, and we get much more hp from stamina (with no diminishing returns) than the other tanking classes. Agility, on the other hand, is affected by diminishing returns. If you gemed all agility, you would eventually ask yourself... "hmm, do I want .20 more dodge or 446 hp?".

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudolpho View Post
    IMO you should always gem straight agi
    Tanking: Stamina > Agility

    Dps: Agility > Stamina

    Please don't confuse the two.

  7. #7
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    I am sorry, but I have trouble seeing where you are coming from with that. When I started gemming and enchanting agi I noticed a giant jump in my tanking ability. Stamina gives you hitpoints but it doesn't give much in the way of mitigating damage. Agility gives me armor, dodge, and crit. Dodge means I get hit less, crit means I heal more often, shield myself, and increases dps for threat generation, and armor is straight up physical mitigation. The only reasons I could see stacking stam being the better idea would be once you have good enough gear to have high enough agi that you have sever diminishing returns, or for tanking mostly magic damage.

  8. #8
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    NOTHING HAS CHANGED!

    that said any red socket with an agi or stam bonus that does not require a yellow gem I do not even hesitate to put an agi/stam in it where as I would always have needed it to be 6 agi or 9 stam before.



  9. #9
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    I'm no expert, as other posts I've made in this forum will attest, but here's what I've found while in transition:

    Too much stamina+too little agility --> less avoidance (drains healer mana fast). Also contributes to less threat due to less crits.
    Too little stamina --> get two-shot by Festergut and Marrowgar.
    Too much agility --> No such thing. More agility --> more crit and dodge --> more threat and avoidance.

    A lot of tanks fall into the 'stam, just stam, only stam' trap. That's great for when you're first getting into new content, because your gear will be behind the curve and your DPS and healers are still gearing up, but as soon as they catch you, you'll want to start gemming for better threat/crit/damage capabilities to stay ahead of them -- most 'zomg meterhog' DPS don't care that they're pulling aggro because they're being stupid, and the gems/enchants you have are what allows you to customize your gear to your best of your abilities.

    I'm in the Disciples of Darksend school of thought now. I have:
    red slot: Agi
    blue slot: Agi/Stam or Stam (if I had a 30 stam in there, I left it, otherwise, I went Agi/Stam)
    yellow slot: Agi/Stam if the socket bonus isn't worth it (8 AP=not worth it) or Agi/Crit if it was (+6 Agi)

    If I ever end up being under the hit cap again, I'll go with hit/stam in yellow slots. I've also tossed one red Expertise gem in a throwaway yellow slot just to get close to the soft Expertise cap until I pick up more expertise gear (I'm trying to stay at/near 26 Exp Skill).

    -Tielyn
    Last edited by Tielyn; 01-25-2010 at 06:22 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tielyn View Post
    I'm no expert, as other posts I've made in this thread will attest, but here's what I've found while in transition:

    Too much stamina+too little agility --> less avoidance (drains healer mana fast). Also contributes to less threat due to less crits.
    Too little stamina --> get two-shot by Festergut and Marrowgar.
    Too much agility --> No such thing. More agility --> more crit and dodge --> more threat and avoidance.

    A lot of tanks fall into the 'stam, just stam, only stam' trap. That's great for when you're first getting into new content, because your gear will be behind the curve and your DPS and healers are still gearing up, but as soon as they catch you, you'll want to start gemming for better threat/crit/damage capabilities to stay ahead of them -- most 'zomg meterhog' DPS don't care that they're pulling aggro because they're being stupid, and the gems/enchants you have are what allows you to customize your gear to your best of your abilities.

    -Tielyn
    Healers are going to be spamming you regardless of you stacking stam or agility, so your "less avoidance = less mana" doesn't make sense unless you have healers that reactive heal instead of proactively heal...which is bad...and would cause many more wipes than your choice in gems/gear. Avoidance does not save healers mana.

    Stacking stamina allows you to sustain more damage than you'd be able to take if you stacked other stats, always, there is no RNG or "maybe SD will proc and equalize things". It's a safe stat to stack, with predictable results. That said, stamina is not the end-all be-all stat...you do need to balance stats but that is mostly covered with passive agility already on your gear, or maybe a few enchant slots.

    Saying you cannot have too much agility is a bold statement, it does provide EH via the armor gained but it certainly doesn't equate to what stamina would give you.

  11. #11
    It is completely pointless to have like 60k hps raid buffed if you get hit all the time. Its much better to be lower hps but dodge more than you get hit (plus the shielding \ healing from crits and the armor reduce dmg even when you get hit).
    This is another case of hyperbole driving the argument. Having high HP doesn't mean you "get hit all the time."

    I posted my stats in another thread, and this isn't trying to brag or something (because my gear isn't even THAT good.) it's just demonstrating the fallacy of the argument.

    I'm coming up on 50k hp unbuffed (~49,200 to be more exact). I'm also melee hit capped and expertise hard(parry) capped. I have 28.56% unbuffed avoidance WITH chill up. 48.56% without chill. This is without any buffs at all. Not even MotW, Mongoose or Idol procs.

    (Might actually be slightly different since I upgraded my T10 pants to 264 since I last counted my stats up, but whatever.)

    I know some of that is just a function of my gear being higher level...but this idea that "stacking stamina means you have no other stats" is just entirely off base.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tielyn View Post
    I'm no expert, as other posts I've made in this forum will attest, but here's what I've found while in transition:

    Too much stamina+too little agility --> less avoidance (drains healer mana fast). Also contributes to less threat due to less crits.
    Too little stamina --> get two-shot by Festergut and Marrowgar.
    Too much agility --> No such thing. More agility --> more crit and dodge --> more threat and avoidance.

    A lot of tanks fall into the 'stam, just stam, only stam' trap. That's great for when you're first getting into new content, because your gear will be behind the curve and your DPS and healers are still gearing up, but as soon as they catch you, you'll want to start gemming for better threat/crit/damage capabilities to stay ahead of them -- most 'zomg meterhog' DPS don't care that they're pulling aggro because they're being stupid, and the gems/enchants you have are what allows you to customize your gear to your best of your abilities.

    I'm in the Disciples of Darksend school of thought now. I have:
    red slot: Agi
    blue slot: Agi/Stam or Stam (if I had a 30 stam in there, I left it, otherwise, I went Agi/Stam)
    yellow slot: Agi/Stam if the socket bonus isn't worth it (8 AP=not worth it) or Agi/Crit if it was (+6 Agi)

    If I ever end up being under the hit cap again, I'll go with hit/stam in yellow slots. I've also tossed one red Expertise gem in a throwaway yellow slot just to get close to the soft Expertise cap until I pick up more expertise gear (I'm trying to stay at/near 26 Exp Skill).

    -Tielyn
    This is so far from being anything I would even remotely consider that I am not sure how you related it to me. 30 stams in every blue and yellow no exceptions (unless somehow my gear had 0 red sockets and I needed a red for the meta) and agi/stam in reds that give an agi or stam bonus and do not require a yellow gem.

    I will never gem for threat because it is much easier to just switch out a ring neck or trinket for a DPS one, or my personal favorite the expertise trinket from 10 togc.



  13. #13
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    Darksend (and others) --

    Heh. Open muzzle, insert paw! I apologize. No, you did not specifically tell me to gem for threat. I muddled up some stuff you said about using agi/stam gems with red and blue slots with stuff someone in game told me about gemming. What I really meant to say is that I am an overnight fan of your guide now and am glad to have gotten your help directly on top of it.

    My problem at the time over in the other thread was trying to work with a limited threat issue, and with help from you and others in the thread I tweaked my rotation slightly, respec'd, and regemmed.

    The assertions I made above come from personal experience:
    * Being a healer on the one side of the equation with tanks who stacked nothing but stam gems. The ones that stacked nothing but stam had their health go up and down like a yo-yo -- we were constantly casting to keep them upright. In longer fights (our DPS was kind of lacking) three of our five healers would burn through their mana pools, and we'd wipe at 20% as the two that were left weren't enough to keep up the raid and the tanks.
    * Being the tank with the stam gems back when I first started up tanking again, the healers complained my health was too spiky and I didn't have enough avoidance (I had 32% in Ulduar). The lack of avoidance meant that on Auriya, any time she feared the raid, she'd smoosh me before the healers could get back into position.
    * Our stam-heavy tanks are also finding that our DPS heavies are pulling off of them and dying. :| Hence the attempts to gem for more agility/crit and looking for ways to get more expertise (I was under the soft cap), and the thing I could afford to give up was hit, but not a lot of stam.

    Right now I've got 40K health self-buffed, 42% crit, and 42% dodge (pre-Chill). Since I don't have a huge selection of alternative trinkets to work from (I don't get to bid on tank/DPS gear), the regemming was the best solution I could get my hands on.

    (Feeling like a goof -and- a noob...)
    -Tielyn

  14. #14
    Being a healer on the one side of the equation with tanks who stacked nothing but stam gems. The ones that stacked nothing but stam had their health go up and down like a yo-yo -- we were constantly casting to keep them upright. In longer fights (our DPS was kind of lacking) three of our five healers would burn through their mana pools, and we'd wipe at 20% as the two that were left weren't enough to keep up the raid and the tanks.
    This is a result of something else being wrong in the fight, healers not managing their mana or sniping each others assignments, raid members taking too much avoidable damage that the healers have to deal with, a lack of mana regeneration abilities in the raid, or the fight just lasting too long. The fact is - and healer after healer will tell you this - healers don't heal reactively in current content. You really can't. No matter if the tank is getting hit or not, I'm healing them anyway because in some fights they can die in the time it takes me to say, "Oh, they got hit, NOW let me start casting a heal."

    In short, healers don't run OOM because the tanks aren't avoiding. Something else is wrong.

    Being the tank with the stam gems back when I first started up tanking again, the healers complained my health was too spiky and I didn't have enough avoidance (I had 32% in Ulduar). The lack of avoidance meant that on Auriya, any time she feared the raid, she'd smoosh me before the healers could get back into position.
    Again, something else is wrong here. Sounds like an EH and/or bad cooldown management/fear handling problem. More avoidance won't fix that, because you'll still go splat until you wipe enough times for luck to pay off and you avoid a few hits in a row every fear. Its your responsibility to handle yourself when you know healers are incapacitated and its the raids' responsbility to make sure the entire healing crew isn't running around taking full duration fears every time.

    Our stam-heavy tanks are also finding that our DPS heavies are pulling off of them and dying. :| Hence the attempts to gem for more agility/crit and looking for ways to get more expertise (I was under the soft cap), and the thing I could afford to give up was hit, but not a lot of stam.
    This is a result of either bad DPS or bad tanking rotations. Very rarely are threat issues really a function of the tank's stats unless they're undergeared compared to the DPS or something about the fight mechanics causes it. If DPS are pulling off a stamina tank, they'll pull off the tank gemming for crit too, because a few percent of crit isn't going to fix a tank rotation problem, an overzealous DPS problem, or a lack of misdirects.

  15. #15
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    I really appreciate all the input guys, and both sides are making valid points. I think for right now I'm gonna sit down with my healers after we do ToC tonight and see what they think with my current stats and what would change if I regemmed. Then I'll probably try and regem for ToC next week and see what the differences are. My guild is still a little off from doing ICC so I think I'll have to switch back and do the same thing for ICC. That way I can figure out what exactly will work best for each raid and what I should swap out. So again, thanks for the input, you've given me a lot to consider and I think I'll have to do some sort of combo to get things just right.

  16. #16
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    I would argue that you can make significant boosts in your threat via expertise or hit gains that can make a difference (especially avoiding early strings of misses which are usually the biggest cause), but otherwise this is spot on.

    And most importantly - talk to your raid about what you need to do. While stamina tends to be the best overall choice, especially for a druid tank that gains the most from it, it isn't necessarily the best choice for your raid's success.

  17. #17
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    Ok, so I did ToC with the trinkets I normally use, which are The Black Heart, and one of the Brewfest trinkets. Everything went pretty smooth on my end. Then I got a small hiccup, I won the trinket off of the Twins, the one that gives 114 dodge rating and has the use ability to increase your armor by like 2k each time you get hit, up to five times. Well, I had heard that most feral tanks stack agility for hard mode anub'arak so I got an idea.

    I had tanked Anub'arak to help them out with their run from earlier in the week and help them finish it off. My health had been very spiky throughout the entire encounter and my healer was OOM by the time the third phase hit. So, this time, I swapped my stam trinkets with the glyph of indomitability and for the new trinket off the twins. I was amazed at the difference in damage I was taking. I had a ton more avoidance and armor and two more panic buttons. My health got a little spiky in phase 3 but I expected that, it's a hectic phase. So I think I'll be swapping trinkets and possibly even rings, neck pieces and/or cloak for those avoidance heavy fights, and vice versa for stam heavy fights with lots of magic damage.

  18. #18
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    Well Glyph of Indominability is probably a lot to thank for that, but also, anub'arak is a very different animal than most fights, mainly because stamina ends up hurting you and your raid in phase 3 because it actually means you take more damage. Glyph of indom is probably the best trinket you can use while tanking anub. The dodge trinket is so-so.
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