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Thread: Deathknight Armor Levels in ICC

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    Deathknight Armor Levels in ICC

    I'll start by saying I absolutely love the absurd amount of armor I have these days. Being at nearly 41k raid buffed in a balanced set of gear is very nice, but i'm starting to worry about how this could effect any frost spec I might utilize in the future.

    I'm no math wizard here, but as I understand it the cap on armor mitigaiton is 75%. At the moment i'm missing the armor ring, bracers, neck, and belt (as well as a few other ICC upgrades with marginally more armor than their t9 counterparts) and that would poentially put me at nearly 42k armor buffed or around 72-3% armor mitigation. Already, in my frost spec, un-glyphed UBA takes me to 74.6*%.

    Are we rapidly approaching armor values that render some of UBA's effectivenes null due to the armor cap or am i wrong about how the dr is calculated?

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    Remember that armor is less effective against bosses - you need more armor to reach the cap then the tooltip leads you to believe.
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    Goodness! 41.000 armor raid buffed? Oh my. And I was happy I started to approach 34.000 on my warrior. Though I'm guesstimating the 5-6k armor difference is being offset by blocking a little bit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aethelas View Post
    Goodness! 41.000 armor raid buffed? Oh my. And I was happy I started to approach 34.000 on my warrior. Though I'm guesstimating the 5-6k armor difference is being offset by blocking a little bit.
    Gear diffirence perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    Remember that armor is less effective against bosses - you need more armor to reach the cap then the tooltip leads you to believe.
    I get that, but are we then talking about less effective mitigation at the very high end, or is that an illusion? I mean, would being at say 48,000 armor and 74.90% mitigation be a drastic diffirence from 49k and a perfect 75%? In other words: should dk's be looking to bleed off armor in favor of stam and even avoidance at these levels of armor? Is armor having a lessened effect point for point up here or am i just gravely mistaken about how it works?

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    Armor has a cap, the way avoidance ratings have a cap they diminish too, however, armor's hard cap actually comes before the curve's assymptote (fancy term for the value the curve approaches but never quite reaches).

    So there is a hard armor value that you cannot get value above, for a raid boss attacker that is 49,903 (discussed in my guide here: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...866#post337866).

    The question becomes, which is more important:
    A.) You constant all-the-time reduction from armor
    -or-
    B.) Not wasting a little of your use of UA (20 sec per minute = 33% uptime, if used on CD)

    I can't say there is a single right answer, but it might not be a bad idea to have more armor regardless, but maybe you want to take the cutoff and trade some improved armor pieces to give you more avoidance? If my memory serves me correctly, the cap where UB unglyphed will start overflowing the hard cap is just shy of 40k armor before using it, but that would not include Devo Aura or Stoneskin totem, I'm assuming.
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    It seems reasonable that at these armor levels, espcially as frost, it would be wise to avoid armor at the cost of other stats (ie. stam, possibly avoidance encounter permitting). Ironically, it seems the majority of high stamina items also have the most armor (with a few exceptions in the ilvl 277 gear), so it's a bit of a catch-22 for the frost dk. You can try to strike a balance perhaps, using double stam trinkets, or a stam and avoidance trinket combo instead of utilizing an armor trinket like the unidentifiable organ. Again, it's speculative here, and it will probably be another month of farming before I reach a gear level that actually puts the hard-cap at arms-length, but I think it's something to keep in mind when making critical early badge purchase. Then again, with the recent changes to t10, it could be that avoiding surplus armor itemization cannot be avoided at all.

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    The quickest solution is to use the armor gear (often the BIS for stamina/armor values regardless) and switch to a different spec. UA is simply weaker than Vampiric Blood for most of the harder fights in ICC, especially if you are stacking available armor items and Ironshielding (which will put you just shy of the armor cap regardless).
    If you like Frost's playstyle, I would still keep the armor gear. There aren't fights that favor avoidance yet in ICC, just armor or stamina. Keep it simple

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    The quickest solution is to use the armor gear (often the BIS for stamina/armor values regardless) and switch to a different spec. UA is simply weaker than Vampiric Blood for most of the harder fights in ICC, especially if you are stacking available armor items and Ironshielding (which will put you just shy of the armor cap regardless).
    If you like Frost's playstyle, I would still keep the armor gear. There aren't fights that favor avoidance yet in ICC, just armor or stamina. Keep it simple
    Well, that IS the obvious solution and as a mostly blood tanking dk I can't say this issues concerns me much compared to the laundry list of issues that need to be addressed with the class. That being said, I can forsee a few encounters where frost could be preferable if not very helpful in heroic mode (still hoping sindragosa allows me to use acclimation for something other that laughter at my wasted points while i trash heroics). When you consider that one of the few strengths dks have over other tanks is their spec flexibility, having frost's secondary CD get basically nullified is troubling indeed. Imagine (rediculous as it may be) that hp had a hard cap and bears were going to easily run into it while using a single stamina trinket and popping SI. It would hit them a heck of a lot harder since they have no alternate spec's avalible, but it follows the same general logic: the bear's strength is his raw hp and the hard cap would be a very nasty limiting factor if they scaled that close to it.

    Again, i'm all for just spec'ing blood or unholy and calling it a day, but i'm forced to question the lack of foresight when all this armor gear went in. Armor is good, and I LOVE what it does for my dk, but if these levels of armor are supposed to be par for the course they really should have examined UBA a bit more closely, or at least changed the glyph to make it not useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    The quickest solution is to use the armor gear (often the BIS for stamina/armor values regardless) and switch to a different spec. UA is simply weaker than Vampiric Blood for most of the harder fights in ICC, especially if you are stacking available armor items and Ironshielding (which will put you just shy of the armor cap regardless).
    If you like Frost's playstyle, I would still keep the armor gear. There aren't fights that favor avoidance yet in ICC, just armor or stamina. Keep it simple

    It will be very interesting to see how the 277 tier items +set bonus compare to the 1-3% less physical damage taken from using full armor items. WTB hard modes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vah View Post
    It will be very interesting to see how the 277 tier items +set bonus compare to the 1-3% less physical damage taken from using full armor items. WTB hard modes.
    Seem logical that the 3% will be worth a lot more when hardmodes are out (unless bosses just hit faster and not harder, which screws us no matter how we gear). I can't really think of a situation that blizzard could come up with to make a weak cd greater than much higher static armor and slightly higher stam. Not to mention the 2piece of our set is just so god-awful it might as well not be there.

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    I like the idea of chaining CDs for 90+ seconds, and i don't consider 12% to be that weak, not to mention its 12% to all damage, not just physical. But it's obvious this will vary from fight to fight. I do agree the 2 piece is completely useless... except for trash, but it's not like our threat really needed buffed anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vah View Post
    I like the idea of chaining CDs for 90+ seconds, and i don't consider 12% to be that weak, not to mention its 12% to all damage, not just physical. But it's obvious this will vary from fight to fight. I do agree the 2 piece is completely useless... except for trash, but it's not like our threat really needed buffed anyways.
    Man your dude looks pretty cool. We should meet up in game and be Tauren DK tank friends some day.

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    How exactly are you going to "chain" cooldowns (including bloodtap) when you'll be needing blood tap to activate VB(or whatever your secondary is) without screwing up your threat rotation? I mean sure, you CAN just say hell with it and use a jumbled rotation, but i'm pretty skeptical of the whole chained cooldowns including bloodtap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    How exactly are you going to "chain" cooldowns (including bloodtap) when you'll be needing blood tap to activate VB(or whatever your secondary is) without screwing up your threat rotation? I mean sure, you CAN just say hell with it and use a jumbled rotation, but i'm pretty skeptical of the whole chained cooldowns including bloodtap.
    Being able to manage your cooldowns as well as runes seperates the good players from the mediocre. Also, if you're having problems with threat to the point where you can't give up 1 heartstrike every 60 seconds, then you most likely shouldn't be in ICC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Man your dude looks pretty cool. We should meet up in game and be Tauren DK tank friends some day.
    Does that mean you'll be going femtaur to have my calf babies? <3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vah View Post
    Being able to manage your cooldowns as well as runes seperates the good players from the mediocre.
    That. Well said.

    Quick math though, 12% damage reduction for 10 sec per minute (Blood Tap used on cooldown, in reality it'll probably be a little less frequent even in the most adept hands, but we could be squabbling over seconds), a ~17% uptime would make it a ~2% damage reduction on the average. Compared to passive armor bonus it would be smaller on the overall average but higher burst response.

    Here's the fine print though, as of next Tue you can get the 4 pc bonus without sacrificing any bonus armor. The set gloves and chest will now have bonus armor and there are no shoulders or helms with bonus armor. Voila, 4 pc set bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    as of next Tue you can get the 4 pc bonus without sacrificing any bonus armor. The set gloves and chest will now have bonus armor and there are no shoulders or helms with bonus armor. Voila, 4 pc set bonus.
    And this is with a 264 version with bonus armor?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vah View Post
    Being able to manage your cooldowns as well as runes seperates the good players from the mediocre. Also, if you're having problems with threat to the point where you can't give up 1 heartstrike every 60 seconds, then you most likely shouldn't be in ICC.
    That is true, but as Satorri pointed out, that cd averages out to less dr than the armor you'd get from the off-set gear. Assuming new burst mechanics are in most hard-mode encoutners you're right, the cd may be invaluable, but I don't see any evidence one way or the other at the moment.

    @ Satorri How do you get 4p without sacrificing bonus armor? Unless you mean ilvl 277, I don't think this is the case.

    IMO the immidiate future still looks good for the offset gear. I'm confident that the smart play (for those of us who didn't get t10 first) is to hang onto our offset gear and the excess badges we earn beyond that, until we see the heroic encounters.

  20. #20
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    Keep in mind that while the percentage reduction from armor suffers from diminishing returns, the actual relative effectiveness is somewhat linear. Moving from 70% to 75% damage reduction is drastically more significant than moving from 65% to 70%. Even if you just move from 72% up to 75%, you're looking at a 12% relative damage reduction (.03/.25). As long as you haven't actually hit that hard cap with unbreakable armor active, you're not actually losing any throughput to diminishing returns. Once you do hit the hard cap with cooldowns active, there's still the benefit of the armor stat while the cooldown is not active. And alternatively as Edgewalker pointed out, the fallback plan if you're just feeling cheated psychologically is to respec out of frost.

    -Splug

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