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Thread: Tank confused about healers

  1. #1
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    Tank confused about healers

    Hey there healing community!

    I'm RL/MT for my guild, and as such have been trying to study up on all classes and roles to get a better feel for streamlining our progression runs. One of the things I've been trying to do is better my knowledge on healing.

    Now, I know druids and shaman are primarily raidhealing, with secondary note taken to tanks as well. For holy priests, I believe it is split(?).

    For holy paladins and disc priests, is the focus tank healing?

    I ask, because of tank discussions regarding why we gear for effective health vs. avoidance. It's to give time for the healers to cast longer, bigger heals and to keep the damage stream constant rather than spiky. I get that part, but the more I read from the healer perspective, it seems to contradict somewhat. Looking at the two priest guides at the top, for instance, shows all these intricate rotations of flash heals, penance, prayer, circle, etc. Mention of greater heal is only to state that it's pretty much shabby and outdated.

    So who heals me other than my paladin? Can someone provide a little insight? Thanks for your time
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  2. #2
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    From what I've been told, the general consensus is holy priest = raid, disc = tanks

    But they can each do both things, just in different ways. In the end, the disc priest probably wins out on tank healing, and the holy priest on raid.

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    Thanks for the response.

    Anything else on "big, slow heals as opposed to small heals and hots" as queried in my post?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    From what I've been told, the general consensus is holy priest = raid, disc = tanks

    But they can each do both things, just in different ways. In the end, the disc priest probably wins out on tank healing, and the holy priest on raid.
    ^

    As far as the EH debate goes, EH smooths out the damage taken, which gives us healers a little breathing room. Especially with current content hitting so far, reducing the effect of the hits is what matters. Tank healing isn't a reactive healing style, it's proactive. Where it matters, tank healers don't stop casting. Avoidance doesn't cater to this style of healing, instead it makes it mostly overheal and the hits that do get through are bigger and more panic inducing. However, EH reduced the amount of damage done, either by actively reducing it through armor or by making the health pool larger so the damage, on a whole, is a smaller portion of the tanks health. This reduces the panic effect and the burstiness of it all.

    In short, avoiding a hit largely doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, you are going to get healed anyway since healers can't predict the damage that is going out. If I could say "ok the tank will take damage this swing, but not the next 4" then it would be great, but that's not how it works.

  5. #5
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    i sense flame coming to this thread...

    but my 2cents: its not nessicarily what a healing class is for its what they fail at... ie druid can spam hots and healing touch on a MT just as well as a pally BUT a pally cant effectively heal a raid in a fight like twin valks or festergut.

    so understanding what tools the healers have will make the most sense and assigning them as such. i dont think its fair to say things like disc tank holy raid when in some fights your better off putting the disc on the raid like festergut, saurfang.

    but i suppose short answer:

    tank: pallys
    raid: druids
    tanks+melee: shammy
    anything: priests


    the avoidance vs EH thing isnt really to set up healing. its a topic of survivablity. i wouldnt stagger your healers at all based on the gear set up of the tank. the tanks job is to mitigate dmg taken, period. you dont EH set for pally healers or avoidance set for druids, thats overthinking it (for lack of a better word) imo.

    but ya your heals come from you pallies ideally, although a good druid with the time for it will hot you, shammy will earthshield and priest will renew/pom when they can.
    Last edited by Megatwan; 01-20-2010 at 11:59 AM.

  6. #6
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    I don't see any reason this needs to turn to a flamewar.

    With that being said, I think Amamaeth had the best, most too the point post here that covered what needed to be said. Pally's and Disc priest are usually the goto tank healers because of their arsenal, could either raid heal? Certainly, but with their skill sets they are most effective at tank healers.

    Same in the converse, holy priests, druids and shaman make great raid healers. Spreading HoTs and AoE heals make the reason for it a no brainer. However, all three of these are also "capable" of tank healing, but if you have a pally in the group, no reason to waste his ability to keep both your MT and OT tank up simultaneously without having to ever change targets.

    I'd comment on the EH vs avoidance but, like I said Am has covered that well enough already.

  7. #7
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    dread,

    about EH/avoidance, it's really not about "longer bigger heals" ... it's about having a warm and fuzzy feeling

    can i (as a disco priest /tank heal) turn away from the tank for a GCD or two to help out the raid heals? or with the tanks health bar be at 30% all of a sudden, where one more hit could kill him?

    and look at the common terminology: MT, OT, healing team. healers tend to be cooperative players... (or is it that cooperative players tend to like healing?) see the thread here on "focusing your on your assignment".

    also, with the new LFD/badge loot, it's easy (for a player who has the time), to be geared for ICC10 in a month after dinging 80. so bring the player not the class/spec/GS.

    Doc

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    Agreed...there's no fight currently in the game save for Anub offtanking where I'd switch from EH to avoidance...for anything. I don't see how it could become a flame war, but if it does it'll get locked anyway.

    Regardless, thank you all very much for responding, I can put all of this info to great use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  9. #9
    Short answer: Any healer can do pretty much any role sufficiently.

    Disc priests can be amazing raid heal/prevention utility with mass shielding. Druids can be stellar tank healers with Lots'o'hots and nourish. There's really not nearly as rigid healing roles as folks make it out to seem.

  10. #10
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    Disc preists can do both roles, although they do have some talents that would make them more effective tank healers, although for fights like festergut, disc priests can assist very well raid healing by just spamming PWS on everyone

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    I mostly agree with what has been said, but I have some disagreements with most of what has been said. Rather than respond to each one, I will restate in my own way. For reference, I raid tank on paladin and druid, and I heal on all 4 classes, so I have a very representative few of the mechanics of the healer classes, from a tank's perspective.

    First, on tanking with respect to EH vs avoidance. I think we are all in the EH camp in this thread, and we've all been through survivability of the various types of tanks. From a tank/healer dynamics, an avoidance tank essentially puts his survival in the hands of RNG. An EH tank puts his fate squarely on the skills and capabilities of his healers. A lazy healer would prefer a high avoidance tank (less work), while an EH tank (the proverbial meat bag with no avoidance/mitigation) constantly needs healing. But as tanks, we know we cannot rely on RNG, so we gear for EH and by and large, assume the healers can cope. In a good guild this is true, but can you get into nasty situations in determining root causes of tank deaths, if it's due to insufficient EH for the content or healer's fault. And while combat parses can actually pinpoint who is at fault, the general population either fails at content, or suceeds by virtue that the sum of the abilities of the tank and healer is good enough (one of: overgeared tank and healer, overgeared healer and tank, or adequately geared of both).

    -EH does not smooth out damage profile. All it does is give a healer more working room.
    -An avoidance tank, even if overgeared for the content, will result in a spiky damage profile from a healer's view, but with enough avoidance, also buys the healer more time to get off those nuke heals (subject to RNG).
    -Mitigation is the only thing that smooths out damage intake. This is in 3 forms - Armor on physical fights, magic resistance on magic fights, and shield tanks for physical. This is why paladins have the smoothest profile, as they have good magic damage reduction, high armor, a small amount of self heals, and have the smoothest block profile. If you look the total damage of a paladin, they probably take more damage in each category (they lack the big blocks of a warrior, the high armor of a bear, or the intense mitigation/self healing capacity of a DK). By contrast, DKs have the spikiest profile, because either they are geared to a specific mitigation (frost do poorly on magic fights, unholy do poorly on physical fights), or in the case of blood, have a high EH but get it back through self heals.

    From the healer perspective, I view them as being a scale, with one end being good for raid healing, and the other end being good for tank healing.

    Tank heals
    -Specialize in really big single target nuke heals
    -Have really fast single target heals
    -Have really good "stamina" (either mana efficiency, good mana pool, insane regen, or combinations thereof"

    Raid heals
    -Almost always have higher throughput stats (more people healed at one time), but sometimes don't heal for as much per person
    -Are pretty fast at multiple heals
    -Don't always have good stamina, or have to put conscious effort into it by various strategies.

    So, the scale

    Raid Healer <------------------------>Tank healer
    Holy Priest - Druid - Shaman - Disc Priest - Paladin

    In my books:
    -Holy priests should never tank heal. To effectively do this via spec and gear would affect your raid healing abilities
    -Paladins should never Raid Heal. They can help at best under specialized circumstances (tightly clustered targets)
    -Druids can be specced and glyphed for tank heals and still somewhat manage raid healing in a pinch. Similarly, a disc pries tcan be specced and glyphed for raid heals and still do well at single target heals.
    -Shamans do either role equally well, but are not the best at either (raid healing or tank healing) as compared to other classes, except in certain circumstances (melee targets for raid heals they are undisputed kings, and they favour infrequent big hits for single targets)

    A typical 25 man raid consists of 2-3 tanks, 5-6 healers, at least one party of melee, one party's worth of casters, the last part is a mix of hunters, melee and casters ranged. In such a situation

    -A Paladin should always assigned to the 2-3 tanks. Not only can you just not beat them at that role, you also would make them miserable raid healing, although during raid heal requirements, they will on their own pitch in as they can.
    -A disc priest is a good alternate to holy paladin, i'd say 95% as good, but can be called upon to raid heal quite comfortably as needed.
    -A holy priest should always be assigned raid heals, with the condition they pitch in as needed (Guardian spirit as another tank cooldown, rolling renews on tanks, etc.)
    -A druid, like a disc priest, is a good alternate to a holy priest, but with the added benefit of rolling alot more HoTs on the tank, which helps smooth out the healing the tank healer must deal with.
    -A shaman has a very specific role, melee raid healing. If you have 5 or more melee, there's just not reason not to pack a shaman.

    In selecting the 5-6 healers, here's my ideal conditions.
    1) One of each healer for the first 5
    2) In the absence of more information, a 3rd priest who is dual specced disc/holy, to cope for each fight. Other priests can be holy/shadow or disc/shadow.
    3) a 2nd druid is a very good alternate to a 3rd priest
    4) if you are melee heavy (2-3 parties worth of melee) a shaman becomes the best bet.

    Always be aware of major mana regen strategies when assembling groups and placements.
    -Shaman mana tide totems are party only and have limited range
    -Priest Divine Hymn has a short range; if your prot paladin or a DPS is too close, he can inadvertantly snipe one of the 3 mana regen spots, which is a huge waste.
    -Casting Divine Hymn with Mana Tide Totem at the same time is a good thing (read divine hymn description, then read mana tide, and see if you can figure out). Same goes for Divine Hymn and shadow fiend/Divine Plea. Good healer TEAMS will co-ordinate timing and combination of mana regen bombs to benefit all the healers, rather than pop one when they personally are low on mana (that's what mana potions are for)
    -I've noticed this one recently: Every healer is told to gem for int to improve mana regen, but rarely do they check how many replenishment sources are present! And then they wonder why they sometimes go OOM.

    For tanks, I'd have a warrior MT and paladin OT, with at least one feral or DK tank (and if you expect a magic heavy boss, an unholy might be interesting). The DK and feral can switch to DPS mid fight much better than the shield tanks. The warrior would receive the holy paladin SacredShield, and the paladin OT would do his own SS (or if you had a paladin MT/warrior OT, holy paladin shields the tankadin while the tankadin shields the warrior OT)

    And I will stop now, before I derail this thread into "What's my idea raid composition"

  12. #12
    Druids can be specced and glyphed for tank heals and still somewhat manage raid healing in a pinch. Similarly, a disc pries tcan be specced and glyphed for raid heals and still do well at single target heals.
    For the most part, the "typical" druid specs are pretty much good at both roles at the same time. There's just not much variance in play in talents and glyphs.

    For glyphs, typically you're going to see Swiftmend and Wild Growth on most trees, which leaves just one slot...and there's not a lot of great options there. You'll probably just pick up Nourish. That's about as "tank heal" and "raid heal" as it gets on glyhps, so you've got as much as you can get on both fronts.

    For talents, you'll see your 18/0/53 or 14/0/57 specs. In this case too, you're not seeing a lot of variance between "raid heal" and "tank heal". You've got Empowered Touch and Living Seed as really the only ones that you'd argue as purely "tank heal" talents, and neither of them provide the tank healing boost you'd expect.

    By and large I'd say that pretty much every tree is great at both tank and raid healing. You can't really spec to the exclusion of one or the other and there's no real glaring weakness in one or the other.

  13. #13
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    If I was asked by my guild to exclusively tank heal on my druid, I would use the following glyphs

    Swiftmend
    Nourish
    Regrowth

    If I exclusively raid healed and consciously avoided tank healing, I would go with
    Wild Growth
    Rapid Rejuvination
    Rejuvination

    if you look at the choices, you will see why they would not be as effective doing the opposite role, illustrating the power of glyphs.

    As for specs, if I wasn't required to tank heal, i would do either a 11/0/60 or possibly 8/0/63. Nature's Grace isn't important unless you need to cast nuke heals, which don't exist in druid raid healing. I can see taking celestial focus for spell haste, but 17 points in balance tends to eat a lot of good talents in resto.

    Regardless of point distribution, living seed is a tank healing talent and revitalize is a raid healer's talent.

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    As Insahnity said, druids can now be used for tank healers. For which, I am very grateful and so was our heal lead when I spoke up about wanting to tank heal some fights. For druids Rapid Rejuv glyph = tank healing step 1. But there is more to it than that. I tank heal so far for 50% of the ICC encounters and it has allowed out main spec holy priest to go back to holy from being disc, for most fights.

    Edit:

    For now, I run a 14/0/57 but because of tank healing, even after reaching the new haste cap I may keep it this way to allow me a lot of versatility. I was running a 11/0/63 before 3.3.

    As for glyphs, I run Swiftmend, Nourish, Rapid Rejuv for tank healing and because I am a lazy tree and don't do my dailys, for raid healing I run Swiftmend, Nourish, Wild Growth.

  15. #15
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    17 in balance is pretty standard unless you're just absolutely loaded down with haste (which obviously some folks are).

    I'd disagree on rapid rejuv not being good for tank healing. Tank damage is consistent and decreasing the time between incoming heals would seem in theory to be more effective, while not necessarily the most efficient.

    Probably isn't the proper thread to hash this out.

    To your larger point, yes, druids have very little variation between healing specs/glyphs for raid v tank healing. The only thing that changes significantly is the rotation used and who's being targeted (obviously). I'd also add that even when tank healing, throwing rejuvs around the raid is a piece of pish.

  16. #16
    Swiftmend
    Nourish
    Regrowth

    If I exclusively raid healed and consciously avoided tank healing, I would go with
    Wild Growth
    Rapid Rejuvination
    Rejuvination
    I dont' understand why you'd use Rapid Rejuv for raid healing since it's basically totally counter-intuitive to the role. And Glyph of Rejuv is very rarely more than a percent or two of actual healing.

  17. #17
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    I don't think it is viable to pidgeonhole spec to healing roles. Quite a bit is down to the fight, healing team composition, spec variants and glyph choices. So there is some lazy thinking going on in this thread.

    For Disc Priest for instance one thing is true: if you are specced into it your single target heals are more efficient if you stay on the same target. Which would suggest MT healing. Yet when it comes to itemization I would differentiate between a Disc priest shielding the raid and a pure bred tank healer.

    When it comes to tank healing as of lately we have seen that the real dangers to tanks are damage spikes. In order to smoothe them out as a Disc priest I would want to maximize on crit so I have a high Aegis uptime. I would push crit at the expense of spell power(typically gemming for either int or straight crit). This is of course under the assumption that I have to smoothe out spikes and most of my heals will go straight into overheal. There are some fights where you also need a high healing throughput like Festergut after his inhales. But in fights like these you typically have another healer on the tank so you will want to have somebody with a high throughput. Be it holy priest, resto druid, paladin, doesn't matter.

    When I'm raid healing I will either do my preventive PW:S spam or I will throw a Penance onto a DPS who stood in the fire or on the MT in case of emergency. In these cases I'd focus on high throughput and push my spellpower at the expense of crit. I'll be healing targets who should not take any damage after my heals so the Aegis bubbles will most likely drop off unused. Disc priest are amazing for emergency raid healing due to Power Infusion. Power Infused group heals have a very short cast time, cost quite bit less mana and have the added benefit of putting Aegis on quite a few party members. This is brilliant on Temper Tantrums. Here you can plan ahead with your shields and quickly heal up the raid. The flip side of this is of course the cooldown on PI. So if there is constant high raid damage(think Festergut) you'll be better off with a holy priest. Disc Priests are also the king of reactive healing due to Penance. The first Penance bolt hits immediately. No preparation required. Just cast it, instant result. Same goes for PW:S which can equate to an instantly applied 7k heal while not touching the life bar so other healers WILL see the emergency.

    A paladin is of course best suited to spot healing targets that take damage. Typically these are the tanks. Or spiked targets on Marrowgar. You get the picture.

    It is cruel to assign a Shaman on the raid when the raid has to be widely spread out due to fight mechanics.

    TL;DR
    Depends on the individual, on the fight and your raid setup.

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    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    -Casting Divine Hymn with Mana Tide Totem at the same time is a good thing (read divine hymn description, then read mana tide, and see if you can figure out). Same goes for Divine Hymn and shadow fiend/Divine Plea. Good healer TEAMS will co-ordinate timing and combination of mana regen bombs to benefit all the healers, rather than pop one when they personally are low on mana (that's what mana potions are for)
    Insahnity's post was great, but I don't agree with blowing all manaregens at once, since hardly ever all healers are low on mana at same time, and if you keep waiting for too long for everyone to get low, someone is going to go OOM even if he uses mana potion. Personaly I do so that everytime I have sparetime from heals I check healers manapools and pop Mana Tide when someone is near OOMing or there is phase change or some other pause in the fight and most of us (if not all) are low enough on mana for not wasting any regen from Mana Tide.

  19. #19
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    I'd go with this:

    Pallies: tank (glyphed holy light also does some aoe)
    Shammies: tank+melee (or any place else where chain heal can shine)
    Druids: raid
    Holy priest: raid (good for burst aoe healing)
    Disc priest: support healer, can either be fulltime on a tank or fulltime bubblespam on the raid or anything in between.

  20. #20
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    I don't see any reason this needs to turn to a flamewar.
    hehe ya i digress, i dont either. however, i knew you would get druid on here saying "f u i can tank heal" and priests saying "zomg i can do it all in any spec" or paladins saying "i can raid heal, i glyphd HL lolz" and lastly shammy that think they can actually heal.

    jkjk


    i think the scale in the well written wall of texty post above summed it up nicely, kudos


    -A Paladin should always assigned to the 2-3 tanks. Not only can you just not beat them at that role, you also would make them miserable raid healing, although during raid heal requirements, they will on their own pitch in as they can.
    while i agree, i would add that when i healed on my pally in hyjal and sunwell, i loved to raid heal. was probly the most fun i had in the game at that time tbh. you had to know who took dmg when and how much and almost be a mind reader to precast when it was going to happen. there were no preheal hots to throw. it was either you had a heal go off on them when they needed it or you were too late. there was very very little margin for error. i dont really think it would be viable based on everything having an aura nowadays though.

    sorry kinda had a flashback rant that was slightly offtopic there lol
    Last edited by Megatwan; 01-21-2010 at 11:46 AM.

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