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Thread: Should I give up on dual wield frost?

  1. #1
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    Should I give up on dual wield frost?

    Recently I started to tank using my deathknight. After reading a bit, I was drawn to the dual wield builds cause, from first glance, it made sense to me. Equipping two tanking swords/axes would let me stack the tanking stats needed, at least up until the rest of my gear caught up. Now my gears still not probably the greatest, and I haven't probably gemmed/enhcanted it to perfection.

    Even though my gears not the greatest available, its not bad, but my survivability in 5man heroics isn't what I'd like. I'm not sure how much is due to my spec, playing style, gear or whether its more the quality of heals.

    I've had a healer complain that I was getting hit too hard, but I'm not sure why I'd be getting hit any harder than a majority of other tanks gearing up through 5man dungeons. I'm def. capped, so I would have thought that would not have been the problem, but is there something I'm missing? Holding threat hasn't really been a problem except in the odd occasion where I've been grouped with an uber geared warrior.

    Here's my toon sheet:
    Skwisgarr

    Any advice welcome. I don't profess to know all there is to know, I'm just trying to improve, and copping the odd slagging in random pugs (thanks dungeon finder) is making me think that dual wield tanking is not the best option for me.

  2. #2
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    Well, you're using PvP gear and DPS trinkets for starters.

  3. #3
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    Yes, replace the PvP gear with tank gear. Use tanking trinkets and sigil instead of DPS trinkets and sigil.

    For dual-wield Frost, your expertise is low. You really should try to get to 26 at least. That will help both with damage taken and threat.

  4. #4
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    As said above you need to ditch the PvP gear. You are currently crit immune so all that resilience is doing nothing for you. With that said, there are heroic blues that would be better than most of that PvP gear for tanking.

    Trinkets need help as well. I'd try to queue for AN and ToC every day for a chance as Essence and/or Black Heart.

    My guess is you are getting put into some of the harder heroics due to the iLvl of your gear which isn't going to work so well.

  5. #5
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    Yeah, as the previous guys said, finish up your tank set and you'll notice a marked improvement in survivability. Also, once you get your tank gear finished.. dump the tank weapons. Nerubian carapace makes every one hander a VERY good tank weapon. 2 slow weapons will provide a much better return on investment, threatwise. This is assuming, of course, that you are crit immune without them. I run a DW frost build as my 2nd tank build and I use it for 5 mans and trash, works quite well.

    Also, specwise, I would fill Guile of Gorefiend and Killing Machine. Both go a LONG way to making threat easier to manage. I'd dump IIT for them.

  6. #6
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    If you are still in the early stages of gearing up, you might have an easier time going 2h frost until you get the gear to support DW frost.

    And yes, less PvP/DPS gear, more tanking gear, please.

  7. #7
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    Your question has been answered, but I want to reiterate/highlight something because I've seen more than one DK now tanking in too much pvp gear.

    You have over 540 def skill, that means that your ~240 resilience is doing absolutely nothing. PvP gear may have nice stamina, but that's about all it offers beyond some equivalent threat values and Resilience which is quickly negated in pve with good defense levels.

    Even using resilience to become uncrittable is not advisable for the amount of avoidance you lose in the process. Blizz has done a very smart and careful job at making PvP gear never *really* appealing as a tank substitute with maybe the one exception of DKs tanking with PvP weapons where you could get superior stamina and dps values provided sufficient arena participation.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #8
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    Thanks guys. I'm trying to off load the pvp stuff, but I'm at that stage where I take what I can get. I've kept the two pvp items for now because they have a stack more stamina than what I had before, so that seemed to make sense to me. If I had pvp and pve gear of the same level I'd go the pve stuff, but I'm just waiting for it to come up.

    Unfortunately I've lost out on rolls on tank gear a couple of times recently too which hasn't helped (tanking 5mans, and dps and/or heals have rolled on it for os - i'm hating tanking pugs).

    Would I be better off replacing the pvp pants with something like Legplates of Frozen Granite?

    In terms of the sigil should I be looking at something like this:
    Sigil of Insolence

    In terms of weapons, would I be better swapping Rimefangs Claw to the off hand and using Nighttime in the main hand?

  9. #9
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    Swollen, I just recently went to DW Frost and I had similar problems when I started, seemed like I was taking a good beating. But as my gear has improved, and probably my play style, avoidance is the norm in 5 mans now. I dual wield Nighttime with Nerubian carapace on main hand and Razorice on the offhand. For 10 mans I use Nightime mainhand and Rimefang with Nerubian enchant for the extra avoidance. The Dual Nighttime is my Threat set, and the Nighttime Rimefang is my avoidance set. I would suggest you rethink your build a bit, the extra points in Icy Talons and Imp. Icy Talons is not great points spent for you as a tank. Glyph of Death and Decay is not the best for frost either.. You should try OBlit, and or FS glyphs.. Check out Satorri's link " The Book of Death Knight Tanking", lots of good information there, and some base DW Frost Builds. I think with some tweaks you will get it going just fine, and the healers will be happy. Make sure you have your trinkets as part of your macro's, along with Rune Strike attached to everything. I personally use Deathchill and have it on a macro attack with HB and IT, for good opening threat. I also find good use for Hungering Cold, I don't see many people use it, but I find it very useful for controlling large packs, used correctly, you can gain several seconds when you are getting a serious beating and the healers need to catch up, it is also good for those Rune blackout spots. You can check out my setup, although my gear is a bit past yours.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...cn=Pestiilence
    "Die Laughing!"

  10. #10
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    Tonight I'm going to start running ToC until drops Black Heart drops and start saving for Glyph of Indomitability. I'm going to respec to this build and see if I can score some Saronite Swordbreakers.

  11. #11
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    Ok so last night I ran a few more dungeons and made a couple of upgrades (or at least what i think are upgrades).

    I grabbed Sigil of Insolence and Glyph of Indomitability with badges. I was lucky enough to score Black Heart on my first run through of normal ToC. Also managed to score my second Nighttime so now I can dual wield them.

    I also respecced to this. Tonight I'm also going to swap out a couple of glyphs to make sure I get Obliterate in there. Any other quick tanking wins people can recommend?

    Tonight I'm going to run normal Forge of Souls to grab Legplates of Frozen Granite. Even though they are a lower iLevel than Furious Gladiator's Dreadplate Legguards would they be considered an upgrade for pve tanking?

  12. #12
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    Jan 2010
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    I would go with more of this build.
    http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc...00000000000000

    Ravenous Dead while grants you 3% strength, is more of a benefit for a unholy build with the attributes it gives to your Ghoul. You want to generate runic power, so u can use your Frost Strike, and have and abundance for Rune Strike when it pops. Since you don't have Chill of the Grave, you should pick up Scent of Blood. Your Frost Strike is one of your big hitters, the more you throw the more threat, the more tps/dps. Personally I don't find a use for epidemic, in heroics the mobs just don't live that long, and in raids, on single targets, keeping my 2 diseases on the mob isn't that difficult. Also I see your defense is still low, once you hit the mark look at putting Razorice on your offhand. It will proc vulnerbility to frost, which will increase the damage your Howling Blast does by a nice margin.

  13. #13
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    Thanks pestilence. I was at 544 defense until I dropped rimefangs whatever for the second nighttime.

    What would be better; picking up bladed armor or dropping more points into unholy to get necrosis?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by swollenpickles View Post
    Tonight I'm going to run normal Forge of Souls to grab Legplates of Frozen Granite. Even though they are a lower iLevel than Furious Gladiator's Dreadplate Legguards would they be considered an upgrade for pve tanking?
    The Legplates of Frozen Granite are definitely going to be an upgrade for you. Picking them up is a good option.

  15. #15
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    You don't need to go any further than 5 points in unholy for a frost tanking build. Points in epidemic and morbidity are useful, but not necessary. You definitely want to put at least a couple of points in scent of blood or chill of the grave (or both) to increase your RP generation.

    As far as gear goes, farm triumph badges from heroics to replace your legs and gloves with t9. The 2 pc bonus for taunt reduction is really nice for instances and speed pulling. After that grab the clutch of fortification. The armor on it makes it one of the best choices for rings at that gear level. Finally, pick up the Headplate of the Honorbound. The expertise will be a huge boost to you as DW.

    You're way over point of crit immunity thanks to your resilience. I would start replacing your +def enchants with stamina, health, and armor. Also replace your +def gems with stamina and expertise. If the socket is blue or yellow go pure stam. If the socket is red, go exp/stam (except in the case of the Headplate of the Honorbound, the 12 stam bonus is so good you'll want to match the yellow socket with either def/stam or hit/stam).

    As you trade your pvp gear in for real tank gear, your crit immunity will come from defense purely instead of a combination of def/resil. So you can afford to drop those def enchants/gems in preparation for that.

    Switch your boot enchant to Tuskarr's vitality. The movement speed increase is invaluable. Worth the 7 stamina tradeoff in most situations. You can also switch your shoulder enchant to the 30 stam pvp enchant, which is popular due to it being much more effective health than the dodge/def enchant.

    As far as runeforges go, Fallen Crusader is better than Razorice for multi-target threat, which is primarily what you'll be doing in heroics. When you can afford to, I would put FC on one of your axes. You can always switch it back to NC if you get into a raid tanking situation where maximizing your survival becomes critical. You could also swap back in your rimefang's with NC on it into your OH for those situations as the the threat loss from using a fast OH is very small and the tanking stats would be an added boost to survival.

    The beauty of DW tanking is in the flexibility you have to swap weapons/runeforges for different situations. NC/NC for max health, FC/FC for max aoe threat, FC/RI for max single target threat, SpB/SpB for tanking bosses that nuke super hard with magic, or SB/SB for max avoidance. And any combination you feel fits your needs best at the time. I carry 6 different one-handers on me at any given time and could easily accomodate more if I were able to pick them up without griefing other raiders needs.

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