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Thread: Why do I keep dying?

  1. #1
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    Why do I keep dying?

    Lately, I have been constantly dying - the other night, several times while tanking Marrowgar in ICC-25, and then tonight while tanking Anub in ToC-25. I have done both of those fights before and not died, but I am starting to think I am doing something wrong.

    Here is my character's armory:
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    After several wipes tonight, I asked my guild for advice. A couple of people suggested it was my rotation; however, I do keep shield block up all the time when its available, so I'm not sure what else in my "rotation" would be causing me to die (I have no threat problems.) On Phase 3 of Anub, both times, I used Shield Wall, Last Stand, Enraged Regeneration, and a trinket cooldown just to stay alive and I STILL died. A DK tank in my guild (who is not as well geared) was able to tank it without dying right after me. A couple of people who were at the raid send me whispers suggesting it was the healing, but I am not sure.

    Is there something wrong with my spec, my gear, or something else that is causing this? Its extremely disheartening to be dying this much all of a sudden. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to correct it ASAP.

  2. #2
    Any new healers that your guild has brought in that were different from your last raids? I don't see how you should be dying at all in ToC 25, or even ICC 25 as long as your healers are competent.

  3. #3
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    I agree with Darkroman, there is no reason you should be dying in TOC 25, definitely a healer issue if you used your cd's etc etc, maybe he was trying to keep you low(like everyone else in the raid) in Anub Phase 3.

    Although you should probably reconsider your gemming. I do understand you are trying to get socket bonuses but you are gemming more like a DPS than a tank. Tanks usually try to get more stamina/Armor and avoidance. You only need to match the gem slot color if you need the socket bonus. Personally I just use staight 30 stamina gems unless socket bonus is 9 stam or greater.

    So if you are going for socket bonuses, here are you choices:-

    Red socket:

    Avoidance: Regal Dreadstone - Item - World of Warcraft
    Threat: Guardian's Dreadstone - Item - World of Warcraft

    Yellow Socket:

    Avoidance: Enduring Eye of Zul - Item - World of Warcraft
    Threat: Vivid Eye of Zul - Item - World of Warcraft

    Few enchants you should change IMO,

    Helm: Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector - Item - World of Warcraft
    Shoulder: Greater Inscription of the Gladiator - Item - World of Warcraft (Yes its a pvp enchant but you dont need to pvp for it, just turn in you stone keeper shards for Wintergrasp Commendation - Item - World of Warcraft and get the required honor)
    Cloak: Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor - Spell - World of Warcraft

    With all this you should easily be able to gain 1.5k to 2k health.

    Also if you are doing ICC its definitely recommended to put 2 points in improved discipline talent and than get Glyph of Shield wall and Glyph of Last stand. Thus you will have a cooldown available to use every minute.

    All this should help your survivability.
    Last edited by gabbu; 01-13-2010 at 04:42 AM.

  4. #4
    Get slightly more armor... you should be with your gear close to 28K not @ 26K. When he do ice slash only armor is what reduces your damage... ok stamina can eat it but armor is savior in those moments.

    Valkyrs ring from 10 man (you have clutch already)
    Armor trinket from Triumph badges (glyph of indomitability)
    Armor Pants (icc crafted if you have money or Ulduar25 ones)
    Neck from Valkyrs 25
    Cloak from Frost badges with armor enchant
    and if you still have badges after that invest in gloves or belt with additional armor.

    ToC have several moments where avoidance is completely negated
    Gormok - Stomps/Impale
    Icehowl - Ferocious but
    Anub - Freezing slash

    Only armor and stamina helps there...
    (Demo shout and Thunderclap not falling off is imperative aswel, have that in mind)
    Mookey | GM of <RISE> Xavius [EU]

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabbu View Post
    Although you should probably reconsider your gemming. I do understand you are trying to get socket bonuses but you are gemming more like a DPS than a tank.
    Actually, I'm not really trying to get the socket bonuses... I'm trying to make sure my hit rating and expertise stay close to their caps (I'm a little under on hit and a little over on Expertise.) I've noticed that if I get too far away from the caps on these that I start missing and it kills my threat generation. Is there some safe amount to be below the cap? I'd love to drop a couple of those gems and replace them with +stam gems.

    Quote Originally Posted by gabbu View Post
    Shoulder: Greater Inscription of the Gladiator - Item - World of Warcraft (Yes its a pvp enchant but you dont need to pvp for it, just turn in you stone keeper shards for Wintergrasp Commendation - Item - World of Warcraft and get the required honor)
    Cloak: Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor - Spell - World of Warcraft
    Thanks, good advice, I'll change those. I can't buy the head enchant yet, but I'm working on the tournament.

    Quote Originally Posted by gabbu View Post
    Also if you are doing ICC its definitely recommended to put 2 points in improved discipline talent and than get Glyph of Shield wall and Glyph of Last stand. Thus you will have a cooldown available to use every minute.
    I've thought about doing this. The first time I was tanking in ICC-25, it was no problem, I wasn't dying. I know this will help survivability... however, it takes away one of my "oh shit" buttons (60% damage reduction) and changes it to a 40% damage reduction that I can use a little more often. Perhaps its worth it. What should I change in my Prot spec to get the two extra points into Improved Disciplines? Edit: I see on yours that you dropped Focused Rage to get it. That is great for boss fights where rage is unlimited, but it worries me a bit on trash and heroics... do you have any issues with rage?
    Last edited by Rithiel; 01-13-2010 at 06:07 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rithiel View Post
    Is there some safe amount to be below the cap? I'd love to drop a couple of those gems and replace them with +stam gems.
    If you are having threat issues mid fight most likely its either your rotation which is not proper or else the dps is starting a sec early. I had this issue mid TOC25 with warlocks, thats when I started using Glyph of Vigilance and have not had any issue since then.

    I would recommend reading this great article. Expertise is always better than Hit - Warriors - TankingTips.com

    You dont really need hit (yea I know it sounds weired) as its only useful for taunts, as a threat stat expertise is way way better and ToC gear has gobs of expertise on it. Stack them expertise. For taunt sesitive fights, like gormok, saurfang I keep a stack of taunt glyphs and use them in place of vigilance. You may choose otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rithiel View Post
    can't buy the head enchant yet, but I'm working on the tournament.
    Its not argent tournament rep, its argent crusade rep and you have the required rep for enchant already(I checked it before suggesting)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rithiel View Post
    I know this will help survivability... however, it takes away one of my "oh shit" buttons (60% damage reduction) and changes it to a 40% damage reduction that I can use a little more often. Perhaps its worth it
    It varies case to case basis but personally I have found shorter CD to be more useful

    Quote Originally Posted by Rithiel View Post
    I see on yours that you dropped Focused Rage to get it. That is great for boss fights where rage is unlimited, but it worries me a bit on trash and heroics... do you have any issues with rage?
    you are totally correct here, I have no rage issues in raids, and I have absolutely horrible issue with rage in heroics. I get by that by wearing pvp gear (yay voa drops) or block gear and pulling 3 packs at a time.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rithiel View Post
    Lately, I have been constantly dying - the other night, several times while tanking Marrowgar in ICC-25, and then tonight while tanking Anub in ToC-25. I have done both of those fights before and not died, but I am starting to think I am doing something wrong.

    Here is my character's armory:
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    After several wipes tonight, I asked my guild for advice. A couple of people suggested it was my rotation; however, I do keep shield block up all the time when its available, so I'm not sure what else in my "rotation" would be causing me to die (I have no threat problems.) On Phase 3 of Anub, both times, I used Shield Wall, Last Stand, Enraged Regeneration, and a trinket cooldown just to stay alive and I STILL died. A DK tank in my guild (who is not as well geared) was able to tank it without dying right after me. A couple of people who were at the raid send me whispers suggesting it was the healing, but I am not sure.

    Is there something wrong with my spec, my gear, or something else that is causing this? Its extremely disheartening to be dying this much all of a sudden. If I'm doing something wrong, I'd like to correct it ASAP.
    Well, first you could dump all of those hit gems for stamina. What are you spending your frost badges on? Any of the upgrades from there are good. Replace that brewfest POS with the glyph from badges and get rid of that 213 cloak. I realize there's nothing from badges until frost, but you're in TOC and if you wanted to you could farm the heroics for one or go do 10m Ulduar. Biggest thing would be getting rid of those hit gems though. No need to ever gem hit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  8. #8
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    I have taken some of the advice here and things do seem better. Unfortunately I've only been able to try it on an ICC-10 (as OT) but I didn't seem to be having any death issues. What I experimented with:

    1). Changing my spec for Improved Discipline & the Shield Wall glyph. I didn't really like how this worked; I could see this being really helpful on some fights in ICC, but overall it really gimps the threat gen on anything but boss fights. I specced back to the way I was, but I might revisit it.

    2). I replaced the enchant on my head and my cloak. I still need the shoulder enchant, but we didn't have WG yesterday when I was on.

    3). I replaced all of the +hit gems with +stam (but I did keep the +exp gems I have so I'm still exp soft capped). It only hurt my threat gen a little (not significantly), but I was actually missing taunts on Saurfang 10 man. It was an interesting situation... I slapped Vig on the DK main tank and got yelled at (because of the 10% threat transfer.) I tried to explain that I was putting it on him for the Taunt cooldown reset, but he wasn't having any of it... Then I got yelled at for not taunting fast enough a couple of times (due to missed Taunts)... Still, not the end of the world. With the extra STA I'm now sitting at over 40,000 health unbuffed.

    4). I started making sure that I am using Demo Shout and that I keep it up all the time throughout a fight. This seemed to make a noticeable difference. Silly me for not doing this before.

    I'm looking forward to trying it on 25 man to see if I have a little more survivability.

    Edit:
    Oh, also to the person above-- I bought a trinket with my Frost badges first. Next I'm buying the shoulders. I should have enough this week.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rithiel View Post
    but I did keep the +exp gems I have so I'm still exp soft capped
    Why dont you use a sword or mace as your tanking weapon to get racial expertise and save some more expertise gemming for stam.

    I knwo you have already bought the trinket from frost emblems but you might wanna read this and change your future choices

    The Emblem of Frost Pick Order - Warriors - TankingTips.com

    ** I think my warrior is in tanking gear now if you wanna see how I gemmed. OH btw I want Falric Wrist Chopper too

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabbu View Post
    Why dont you use a sword or mace as your tanking weapon to get racial expertise and save some more expertise gemming for stam.

    I knwo you have already bought the trinket from frost emblems but you might wanna read this and change your future choices

    The Emblem of Frost Pick Order - Warriors - TankingTips.com

    ** I think my warrior is in tanking gear now if you wanna see how I gemmed. OH btw I want Falric Wrist Chopper too
    Just luck of the drops (same reason you're using that sword, I'd imagine!) I'd rather have a sword, and when one drops, I'll replace it. The trinket replaced an ilevel 200 item.. it was the biggest possible upgrade at the time.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rithiel View Post
    I have taken some of the advice here and things do seem better. Unfortunately I've only been able to try it on an ICC-10 (as OT) but I didn't seem to be having any death issues. What I experimented with:

    1). Changing my spec for Improved Discipline & the Shield Wall glyph. I didn't really like how this worked; I could see this being really helpful on some fights in ICC, but overall it really gimps the threat gen on anything but boss fights. I specced back to the way I was, but I might revisit it.

    2). I replaced the enchant on my head and my cloak. I still need the shoulder enchant, but we didn't have WG yesterday when I was on.

    3). I replaced all of the +hit gems with +stam (but I did keep the +exp gems I have so I'm still exp soft capped). It only hurt my threat gen a little (not significantly), but I was actually missing taunts on Saurfang 10 man. It was an interesting situation... I slapped Vig on the DK main tank and got yelled at (because of the 10% threat transfer.) I tried to explain that I was putting it on him for the Taunt cooldown reset, but he wasn't having any of it... Then I got yelled at for not taunting fast enough a couple of times (due to missed Taunts)... Still, not the end of the world. With the extra STA I'm now sitting at over 40,000 health unbuffed.

    4). I started making sure that I am using Demo Shout and that I keep it up all the time throughout a fight. This seemed to make a noticeable difference. Silly me for not doing this before.

    I'm looking forward to trying it on 25 man to see if I have a little more survivability.

    Edit:
    Oh, also to the person above-- I bought a trinket with my Frost badges first. Next I'm buying the shoulders. I should have enough this week.
    Don't buy the tier shoulders just yet. The badge gloves, belt and chest all are far superior to the tier and are BiS pieces until icc hardmodes. Your armor is a little low (Im near 28k unbuffed and i havent gotten the chest or crafted pants yet, they'll put me over 30k) and getting those badge pieces with bonus armor will boost it up a little and be better overall for EH than the tier shoulders.

    Also, 2/2 imp disc. and shield wall glyph are almost a must in icc, yeah sure you lose 20% damage reduction, but big deal, if your healers are anywhere decent, that 20% won't outway being able to use that shieldwall 2.5x as much. Say for instance Festergut, unless you have INSANE dps, you'll be tanking him at least twice. You pop your shield wall the first time you have him. What if the second time you get him back he's at 3 stacks? Last stand more often than not won't be good enough to keep you up through that.

    Looking at your spec, it should be easy for you to pick up imp disc. by simply taking 2 points out of shield spec, 5/5 shield spec isn't needed and is kind of a waste of talent points. yeah sure it might help a little in heroics but do you want to spec/gear for heroics or end game content?

    And while you're at it, take a 3rd point out of shield spec and max out one-handed weapon specialization. That should be maxed at 5/5 for max threat potential (and on fights like festergut where tank damage means something in correlation with his enrage).

    Also, your glyphs could use changing. I don't see the point of cleave or revenge glyph, you should be glyphing devastate, shield wall and either blocking or last stand (i along with many others choose last stand as having 2x 2 min cd's for icc is very handy). And with glyphed devastate you won't even need to revenge anymore because devastate will always be better for threat, you'd only use revenge if it's all you have rage for but in a normal boss fight you can basically drop it out of your rotation.

    Also, don't worry about hit, it's nowhere near as valuable as expertise. Unfortunately ICC is riddled with tank hit gear so you'll get plenty then but for now just focus on keeping expertise 26+ then gem/enchant the rest of the way for pure EH. And I might note that you could replace 2 of those +20 expertise gems and use rhinolicious wormsteak buff food and still be over expertise cap while gaining 60 stamina.

    Also, your helm has a socket bonus of +12 stam, thats almost a must that you use a hybrid gem in that for the bonus, you're only sacrificing 3 stam to gain some def/dodge/expertise or whatever you decide to socket.

    Get the 30stam/15 resil shoulder enchant.

    Replace your glove enchant with +18 stam or +240 armor, the threat/parry enchant is a thing of the past.

    Also, go farm reg 5 toc and get the black heart trinket if you don't have access to 25 toc and juggernauts. Even though black heart is 44 less stam than the brewfest trinket, the 7k armor proc on it makes it more than worth the passive stam you lose. Those brewfest trinkets are horrid.

    Sorry if any of this has been covered but I didn't read through all the replies before posting =D

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