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Thread: Overzealous DPS 3, Bear 0 (help with threat needed)

  1. #21
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    Sep 2009
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    Will try modifying my rotation for more Swipeage, less Lacerate-age, and should I worry when/if my mangle gets overwritten by the warrior?
    No. You don't care about whether it's your mangle buff or their trauma buff on the target. You do mangle because its the single highest threat/damage move you can do on a GCD. As long as the debuff is going up from somewhere, you're fine.

    And waaaaay back - when swipe wasn't buffed to have 150% more threat than it did - lacerate beat swipe on single target. Because lacerate scales very poorly with AP and swipe scales perfectly with AP, that's really no longer the case any more. And even back then, doing swipes gave higher DPS if not higher TPS.

    If you get 2pT10 this is even more pronounced; Lacerate and swipe both get 20% damage boosts, but lacerate does threat equal to roughly half damage, so it's only a 10% TPS boost for lacerate.

  2. #22
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    Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    No. You don't care about whether it's your mangle buff or their trauma buff on the target. You do mangle because its the single highest threat/damage move you can do on a GCD. As long as the debuff is going up from somewhere, you're fine.

    And waaaaay back - when swipe wasn't buffed to have 150% more threat than it did - lacerate beat swipe on single target. Because lacerate scales very poorly with AP and swipe scales perfectly with AP, that's really no longer the case any more. And even back then, doing swipes gave higher DPS if not higher TPS.

    If you get 2pT10 this is even more pronounced; Lacerate and swipe both get 20% damage boosts, but lacerate does threat equal to roughly half damage, so it's only a 10% TPS boost for lacerate.
    Tsk, Tsk

    Lacerate (Initial)__________________________________ (.5*damage + 515) * stance
    Lacerate (Bleed)____________________________________ .5*damage done * stance
    don't forget the initial built in threat.



  3. #23
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    Sep 2009
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    I didn't - that's why I said roughly. But we'll do the math to figure it out.

    It's a 10% boost for lacerate bleeds, that's clear. If you did X damage before, you'd do X*1.2 now. Since that's multiplied by .5, it's clear that it's only 10% of a boost.

    Similarly, the threat before on the initial hit was:
    (.5*X+515) * stance.
    now it's
    (.5*X*1.2+515) * stance

    Which for values of X being about what they are for me personally (around 400) comes to a bit more than a 3% threat boost. Ugh. That being said, the initial hit isn't that big a deal in terms of overall threat caused from lacerate, so it's *close* to a 10% TPS gain. But it's not quite there.

    Also, lacerate suuuuucks. Stupid static modifiers and poor scaling values.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    154
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidska View Post
    For a class that can Hand of Salv themselves AND bubble, dying from threat is pretty inexcusable so....



    and let the raid leader sort it out.

    You kinda got it backwards for the warrior debuff thing, you should not be concerned with him putting it on at all, he should be concerned if you are putting it on. (Which you should be) The 30% bleed debuff it self is not the real reason you are doing mangle, it's nice and makes your other stuff tick harder but you want it for the pure threat. Hit mangle when it's on cooldown, period.
    This is a great point. While other people have already explain things you can do to help yourselve, any pally who knows his class should be able to prevent over taking the tank on aggro.

  5. #25
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    Jun 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    If you're hit capped, growl can still miss. Growl is on the spell hit table, meaning you need 17% hit to remove all misses. Now, with the growl glyph and a spriest putting up misery if you're hit capped you'll be fine.
    Just to be consistent...

    263 hit rating on the melee hit table is 8% hit, the melee hit cap.
    263 hit rating on the spell hit table is about 10% hit.

    I agree that growl runs off the spell hit table, which means that the growl glyph (8% hit on growl) + 10% spell hit from gear means you are 1% over the 17% spell hit requirements. You don't need a silly spriest, or a draenei if alliance.

    Hypothetically, if you were to run growl off the melee hit table, then you would need growl glyph and spriest** (8% from gear + 8% from glyph + spriest**)

    **You may substitute spriest with any of the following: draenei/spriest draenei/Spriest shooting flaming Draenei/Gnomes out of its maw/Tauren Punting dwarven spriests at the boss/etc.)

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Maine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Hypothetically, if you were to run growl off the melee hit table, then you would need growl glyph and spriest** (8% from gear + 8% from glyph + spriest**)
    If you were to run Growl off the melee hit table, you'd need either the glyph OR 8% hit from gear to cap it, not sure where you're getting such a high number for melee hit cap.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    238
    Hiya folks. I just wanted to check in with all you wonderful helpful folks.

    First of all: thank you for your helpful, non-sarcastic replies. And your patience with me for not listening at first.

    Second: I owe most of you an apology for asserting that I wasn't getting dodged or parried. I did some poking on Skada and discovered that since the top three things I was doing (Hit, Crit, Glancing) were the things I do the most, they showed up on the mouseover. But when I went into gory details mode, I found, at 14 Expertise (roughly):
    Parry: 12%
    Dodge: 5%

    In short, 17 percent of my blows in my then spec+gear weren't landing. But because I didn't see it on my damage meters, I thought I was doing just fine on hitting things.

    When I switched back to my old gear to get 24 Expertise:
    Parry: 5%
    Dodge: 0%

    That was the gear that was keeping threat in earlier incarnations of ICC/10 and ToC/10.
    12% less miss = 12% more threat.

    Lesson learned.

    So I went ahead and respec'd, pulling the points out of Improved Mangle and stuck them into Primal Precision. I regemmed some of the +24 stam and the 8 hit, 12 stam gems out for 10 agi, 15 stam and one 16 Expertise gem, plus one Expertise enchant on my bracers. It put me up at 25 Expertise Skill with room to expand. And with the better gear, slightly better armor, crit, and dodge, and it only cost me about 90 health.

    The Acid Test:
    I successfully off-tanked ICC/10 yesterday, with only one new piece of gear (the Bracers of Swift Death), and not only did I hang onto threat versus our two big DPS offenders in-guild, but also managed to pull threat off our main tank(!) once.

    Right after that, I turned around and did the heroic daily with some of the people in the same raid as DPS spec, and pulled an additional 500 DPS than I normally would.

    One very happy (hybrid)bear tank...
    -Tielyn.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    721
    Glad to hear it

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