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Thread: Overzealous DPS 3, Bear 0 (help with threat needed)

  1. #1
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    Overzealous DPS 3, Bear 0 (help with threat needed) (SOLVED)

    ** This thread has been resolved, question answered, happy bear tank. Results are on the last page. **
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    Hey Tankspotters,

    For the TLDR folks: My DPS need to learn better threat control.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm subbing in as an offtank for a former guildie's guild in 10 ICC -- my official 25 man's guild's main spec is resto healing, or the easy answer would be 'buy T10 gear'. (Their former main tank decided to transfer off the server, leaving them high and dry.)

    Currently, my gear (as currently displayed in the Armory) is good enough to successfully do everything that's out there right now -- we've downed Festergut twice and had Rotface down to 18 percent, so it's just a matter of slightly more DPS and we'll have him.

    Here's the problem:
    - The paladin DPS can sit at 97% of the threat of both tanks, and we can't push him down even on single target tanking. Saurfang ate him because he managed to pull off of us during one of the bloodbeast transitions.
    - The warrior DPS has a bad habit of opening up before I get Rotface positioned. Dying doesn't concern him, since he didn't learn after the first two times he ate it.
    - ...both of them are DPS hogs and trying to beat each other on the meters.

    Compounded by....
    The problem is that due to a combination of bad rolls and a distinct lack of leather drops otherwise, these two high DPSers picked up two plate DPS upgrades apiece. (I'm growly at each of them for picking up a neckpiece and a cloak with Agility on it respectively, but hey, they won the roll, and they're not my guild, so I didn't have any grounds to stand on in all fairness.)

    The obvious-best solution:
    -----------------
    - Bite the bullet, buy two pieces of T10 tank gear. Which I -really- shouldn't do, since I'm supposed to upgrade my healing gear for my regular guild. (I have 127 badges at the moment, which is enough to buy the two cheap pieces)

    Alternative:
    ------------
    - Buy one piece of T10 and the DPS cloak.

    Other (this is what I'm hoping ya'll help me with):
    -------
    -I have extra hit in the form of a few 8 hit, 12 stam gems I can lose since I'm over the hit cap.

    - Can I do some regemming of some sort to fix my expertise, add armorpen, agility, or something... to upgrade my threat, or will the benefits be miniscule compared to one of the two alternatives above?

    - I have Triumph badges and Conquest badges coming out my ears. Anything I can craft that'll help? (For example, Bracers of Swift Death?)

    Yes, I know I don't have all epic purple gems in my sockets. Since this is not my primary spec or guild, it's a lower priority investment.

    I'd really like to keep helping my friend's guild out, and they love it when I come tank for them, but it's also a temporary gig until they find a replacement tank. And I'm not sure I love 'em enough to spend my Frost badges on 'em just so their DPS can be stupid -- but a part of my head says that if the DPS is lacking on bosses, and the tank is the gating factor on the DPS, then the tank is the one that's lacking.

    Advice welcome,
    -Tielyn (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...artel&n=Tielyn)
    Last edited by Tielyn; 01-25-2010 at 06:04 PM. Reason: armory link

  2. #2
    A few things:

    You're right, you have waaay too much hit rating for a bear tank, and you're still gemming for it. If you really want to gem for a threat stat, go for Expertise instead. You could afford to drop some hit gear too, if you have other alternatives available.

    Spec into Primal Precision. That's so much expertise you're missing out on.

    DPS should also be Misdirecting (And even Tricks, if it's that big a problem) to you as often as they can, if threat is causing wipes.

    But generally when it comes to threat issues, you're looking at rotation problems over gear problems. Darksend has a guide on threat rotations already posted in the guides forum, so I won't blatantly plagarize him by copying it here. I'd recommend taking a look. =)

    As for the issue of overzealous DPS dying on a pull...you can't fix that. That's their problem. If they want to be terrible, that's their repair bill. If they persist in being terrible and the raid leader isn't addressing it, then you're wasting your time. (And perhaps that's why their last tank bailed.)

  3. #3
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    Let them die.

  4. #4
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    You have a horrible spec. fix that and it should completely fix the problem. You also have horrible glyphs but there are no real threat glyphs.

    glyphs: growl, survival instincts, and frenzied regen, also get the challenging roar minor.

    spec: drop shredding attacks and KOTJ and get master shapeshifter. predatory instincts does NOTHING for bears. When I look at you spec I would almost think you were a full time cat. Move the 3 from pred instincts to primal precision and then third to imp mangle.

    you can read more here: WOTLK Feral Druid Guide - TankSpot

    you are 4% over melee hit cap to the point your FFF is capped without misery.

    you even gem and enchant like a cat. Get mongoose on your weapon, 40 stam on bracers 10 stats to chest 22 agi on cape go do 1 WG with all the quests and you get enough honor to get the 30 stam shoulder enchant, and farm epic gems. There is no reason with the game the way it is right now that people should not have epic gems for any gear they use regularly. and never EVER use a yellow, green, or orange gem as a tank.

    other than that except for your trinket you have more than enough gear to hold agro, are you getting a tricks or MD on the pull, if not just keep letting them die. Eventually the group will get so pissed at them for dieing and wasting good attempts that they will start yelling at them themselves to hold off and let you get agro. (assuming this is happeneing to the other tank as well like you said they should be smart enough to realize it is a dps fail not a tank fail)



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Let them die.
    Exactly.

    It is the job of good dps to watch their threat, so they don't pull off of the tanks. Instead of being dick-waving jerks trying to get the top dps slot.

    As to the gear.
    You are doing them a huge favor to tank for them so they can raid, you should get as much priority for gear as any of them do.
    Just because you are not part of the guild doesn't mean you should be shuffled off to the for gear. If you weren't there, they couldn't raid.

    As to using your emblems, save up for your main spec.
    If these guys want you to tank for them, then they should be giving you drops if they are good upgrades for you to tank with.
    If the DPS don't like it then they can roll a tank.

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the advice so far.

    Some additional notes:

    I originally gemmed for hit because I didn't have enough back in the Ulduar/25 days. Recent gear upgrades have gotten me more than enough hit where I can drop down -- I just wasn't sure for what-- agility or Armor Pen?

    The spec isn't a pure tank spec -- I was looking for a hybrid tank/cat DPS spec, since my primary guild does occasionally call on me to tank, and when our normal tanks are in the raid and we have enough healers, they have me DPSing on the fights where we don't need the extra healer (we have two feral druids; I'm one of them and the other has classes two days out of the three we raid). (The joys of being a hybrid, eh?) But yeah. I've got a mess of cat-type and tank-type gems and enchants, and up until this point it didn't matter. (But now it does, so I -am- listening.)

    My rotation works on everyone but these three DPSers and a fella I ran into in a PuG who had 251 arena gear. I'm suspecting it's because their DPS is upwards of 3x mine in tank, so it's outstripping the baked in tank threat.

    So far I have: 'Get rid of Growl glyph', 'drop the hit gems' 'not enough expertise' (someone else told me the expertise isn't a problem), and 'let the DPS die' () . Problem is that on Festergut and Rotface, if they die, we don't have the DPS to finish the fight -- right now we've gotten him down with 10 seconds and 18 seconds left before the enrage, respectively.

    I do have some gear swapouts to cap my expertise (Victor's Call) if need be, too, to save the points in Primal Precision.

    Checking out the link as well.


    -Tielyn

  7. #7
    'not enough expertise' (someone else told me the expertise isn't a problem)
    Find whoever told you that and bite them. Tell them it was courtesy of Bovinity.

    Problem is that on Festergut and Rotface, if they die, we don't have the DPS to finish the fight -- right now we've gotten him down with 10 seconds and 18 seconds left before the enrage, respectively.
    But again, that's something you can't fix. If some warrior charges in like a dummy and dies, that's that. You can't outgear stupidity.

  8. #8
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    Primal Precision is a required talent for cats as well as bears. Nothing else is going to be more efficient for either. It's certainly far better than 2 points in improved mangle. And really that's about the only problem your build has.

    My bet is that on both fights you're not doing the right rotation. Here's how to pull to get a lead and keep it:

    Open with FF & charge
    Mangle
    Lacerate
    Berserk
    Mangle crazy

    All the while you must be using maul. If your maul isn't macroed to all your threat moves, do so.

    Since you'll not have imp mangle, your standard rotation is easy:
    mangle
    faerie fire
    lacerate
    swipe

    That isn't perfect (you can occasionally sub in a swipe for a lacerate) but it's close to perfect provided that you're always mauling.

    Otherwise: Bracers of Swift death will help marginally, knightbane carapace would also help marginally. DM:G would help marginally. Fixing your gems would help somewhat but not hugely. Primal Precision will help some.

  9. #9
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    Follow the advice above to fix your spec and gemming, but it sounds like the paladin and warrior are sabotaging things by just not caring at all about aggro management.

    My solution would be to bench them for a week or two, explaining that the raid is getting a little tired of their inability to manage threat.

    You might not be able to pull as much TPS as you should, but DPSers who can't find the wherewithal to adjust until that issue is resolved aren't worth a raid slot.

    Purely my opinion, of course.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tielyn View Post
    So far I have: 'Get rid of Growl glyph', 'drop the hit gems' 'not enough expertise' (someone else told me the expertise isn't a problem), and 'let the DPS die' () . Problem is that on Festergut and Rotface, if they die, we don't have the DPS to finish the fight -- right now we've gotten him down with 10 seconds and 18 seconds left before the enrage, respectively.

    I do have some gear swapouts to cap my expertise (Victor's Call) if need be, too, to save the points in Primal Precision.
    GET PRIMAL PRECISION! stop justifying not having it, it is the best threat talent i nthe game.

    and who said get rid of growl, your 3 majors should be growl, SI, SR. maul is useless on 90% of bosses and will even get you killed on some bosses (see anub when adds run in and pulling off your warrior offtank) or cause the boss to be more difficult (deathbringer blood beasts)



  11. #11
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    Or more accurately: if you're using this as a cat and bear spec, carry around a stack of glyphs. Have some growl, some maul, some SR and rip. They're cheap to make; just get a guildie to make a bunch in exchange for herbs.

    And seriously - don't resist primal precision. It's 10 expertise SKILL. That's worth 80 rating points by itself, and that's not including the awesomeness of the ability for cat refunds on finishers.

  12. #12
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    Ayep. That's my rotation exactly -- (enrage, faerie fire, charge, flip the boss 180, lacerate, queue up the first Maul, lacerate up to 5, Berserk, Manglespam while it's up, lacerate/maul until boss is dead.) Maul is always queued.

    Person who told me that expertise was a 'nicety' rather than a priority will be let know that the nice an' helpful folks on Tankspot say otherwise. I'm guessing that the why is because expertise stops the glancing blows --> more threat? (It looked like a cat DPS thingy rather than a bear thingy, since at one point I had 30 Expertise skill, which was over the cap). I'd gotten some weird explanation about how if I was over the expertise cap, I'd actually be hurting myself because it'd push crit off the table or something like that, but I didn't follow it well. (It was, admittedly, 2am after a long night of raiding.)

    (edited to reflect the very last post above):
    ...oh. SKILL. Not rating. NOW I see the value. *lightbulb*

    -Tielyn
    Last edited by Tielyn; 01-13-2010 at 02:45 PM.

  13. #13
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    Random side questions based on above replies:

    ...if I'm hit capped, will that mean that Growl will never miss?
    ...if I'm hit and expertise capped, wouldn't that mean that my finishers wouldn't ever miss either (negating the utility of the refund?)

    (Going to respec anyway, but just curious.)

    -Tielyn

  14. #14
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    you can never push glancing blows off the table. and the SOFT cap for expertise is 26 which stops dodges. The real cap is 57? somewhere between 54-60 is when you will no longer be parried.



  15. #15
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    Everyone's given you good tanking advice. I can't. I don't know bears. But lemme give you some good raiding advice.

    I don't care HOW wrong your tanking is. Apparently you have things to fix and that's fine. But from your description so do your DPS.

    If your pally knows There's a threat problem he should be toning it down. Not enough dps might kill a raid; DPS causing a tank to lose the boss WILL. Ditto with your war. If he's charging in before the mob is positioned he's causing his own problems. Both of them need to shape up or your raid will wipe no matter how well you tank.

    God, I hate damage meters. Wish they never were invited. DPS might remember they have something else to be responsible for besides making that number go up.

  16. #16
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    Answering my own question before I ask it: 'because it means I can gem/gear for other things instead of worrying about expertise soft/hard caps'.

    The belt I just switched out was the Belt of the Twilight Assassin, which was what had me at the soft expertise cap (57 expertise rating plus my other then-gear --> 24ish expertise skill). So what I'm given to understand is that being below the expertise cap is what's causing my problems, even though I'm only seeing a handful of parries and dodges (<10 apiece over a 3 hour raid night) even with a 14 skill?

    (Sorry for going around in circles on this. WoWwiki is rather unhelpful on the topic of expertise).

    (And the plan at the moment is to respec, replace the 8 hit/12 stam gems with 30 stam gems, then pull the Essence of Gossamer trinket for one of my DPS trinkets or Victor's Call to see if I can't hit the hard expertise cap while I hunt for a DC:G card). And switch back from the Idol that gave me extra dodge to the 157 agility one. :})

    -Tielyn
    Last edited by Tielyn; 01-13-2010 at 03:45 PM.

  17. #17
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    Ayep. That's my rotation exactly -- (enrage, faerie fire, charge, flip the boss 180, lacerate, queue up the first Maul, lacerate up to 5, Berserk, Manglespam while it's up, lacerate/maul until boss is dead.) Maul is always queued.
    Lacerate is suboptimal threat for most bears. You should be swiping after you've established the 5-stack and only lacerating to refresh the stack.

    The reason that hit and expertise are good threat stats is that many components of bear tanking have static built-in threat additions that cannot be improved by other stats. The only way to get 'more' of them is to hit more often. So every bit of hit or expertise means another maul that lands, and that's a big deal.

    ...if I'm hit capped, will that mean that Growl will never miss?
    ...if I'm hit and expertise capped, wouldn't that mean that my finishers wouldn't ever miss either (negating the utility of the refund?)
    If you're hit capped, growl can still miss. Growl is on the spell hit table, meaning you need 17% hit to remove all misses. Now, with the growl glyph and a spriest putting up misery if you're hit capped you'll be fine.

    If you're hit and expertise capped, the refund should never trigger. But it's still 80 rating points for 2 talent points. If you're overflowing in expertise you can consider taking points out, but you have literally nothing better for cat. Imp mangle is a bad, bad DPS talent.

  18. #18
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    Eisen --

    Yeah. The paladin admitted that he didn't have Omen running, and he needed to be better, but he also admitted that he didn't like knowing there was a paladin out there that could out-DPS him, which is what led the warrior to go raaar-compete-y. Part of my tanking routine on trash is to be constantly tabbing through Skada's Threat meter to see which of the mobs one of the three of them was over 90 percent threat on, and sit on that target for awhile with the Lacerate/Maul/Mangle routine until it pushed 'em down, only with their new upgrades from ICC that they've gotten, I can't push 'em down on the threat meters anymore. :P

    And yeah, I know also that it's a lame excuse since even without Omen, you can see if you have threat just by turning options on in your interface. :}

    I really do enjoy tanking on the side, and I've been slowly getting the hang of kitty DPS now that I have halfway decent gear to do it and an actual call for it. It's just nights like last night where all of my skills that have been working since BC days weren't working, and the only things that changed were their gear and gemming.

    -Tielyn

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Lacerate is suboptimal threat for most bears. You should be swiping after you've established the 5-stack and only lacerating to refresh the stack.

    The reason that hit and expertise are good threat stats is that many components of bear tanking have static built-in threat additions that cannot be improved by other stats. The only way to get 'more' of them is to hit more often. So every bit of hit or expertise means another maul that lands, and that's a big deal.

    If you're hit capped, growl can still miss. Growl is on the spell hit table, meaning you need 17% hit to remove all misses. Now, with the growl glyph and a spriest putting up misery if you're hit capped you'll be fine.

    If you're hit and expertise capped, the refund should never trigger. But it's still 80 rating points for 2 talent points. If you're overflowing in expertise you can consider taking points out, but you have literally nothing better for cat. Imp mangle is a bad, bad DPS talent.
    *listening, thinking* At one point, was Lacerate the better of the two (of Swipe / Lacerate), say, around when Swipe wasn't the 360 degree monster? (which, if memory serves me right, was back when we were in Tier 7 and its 5% Lacerate damage buff... aha..that was probably why and when.)

    I should have expected that Blizz would subtly sneak spanners into the rotations of bears just like they did for trees. ('Now Wild Growth is the best druid spell! Oh, here comes the nerf... now Lifebloom! ..uh-oh..too powerful in PvP, let's nerf that, and make Nourish the new best spell ... and now, Rejuvenation! But wait, T10 takes us back to Wild Growth...)

    Will try modifying my rotation for more Swipeage, less Lacerate-age, and should I worry when/if my mangle gets overwritten by the warrior?

    -Tielyn.
    Last edited by Tielyn; 01-13-2010 at 04:14 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tielyn View Post
    Yeah. The paladin admitted that he didn't have Omen running
    For a class that can Hand of Salv themselves AND bubble, dying from threat is pretty inexcusable so....

    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Let them die.
    and let the raid leader sort it out.

    You kinda got it backwards for the warrior debuff thing, you should not be concerned with him putting it on at all, he should be concerned if you are putting it on. (Which you should be) The 30% bleed debuff it self is not the real reason you are doing mangle, it's nice and makes your other stuff tick harder but you want it for the pure threat. Hit mangle when it's on cooldown, period.

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