Tank DPS Graphs for all ICC Fights

[Warwench]

i still don't have any DK Tank data, it maybe a while before WoL gets that added.

[Proletaria]

Perhaps Frost is better at DPS?

What would that matter? Make warriors look artifically worse?

[Airowird]

What would that matter? Make warriors look artifically worse?

No, to see the other side of the coin which "Blood is best" people hold up. It might be able to answer some questions about differences better than theopry alone can

[Proletaria]

No, to see the other side of the coin which "Blood is best" people hold up. It might be able to answer some questions about differences better than theopry alone can

Tank dps isn't a factor in that argument.

If you want to debate the status of blood or frost as raid specs, feel free to start another thread.

[Warwench]

Spreadsheet is updated with the new ICC wing fights.

[Eisen]

Need to stop looking at that spreadsheet. Makes me mad.

[Proletaria]

I want to be mad about this spreadsheet.

[Arikak]

The Putricide graph looks like it could use some more data points before we can get an "accurate" reflection of that fight.

Thanks for doing all this work Warwench. Hope WoL comes through for you soon. I'm sure most of the tanking community wants to see where DK's land amongst all this.

[protonly]

Regarding the raw data all I can say is "no shit."

[Zoal]

Would I be wrong to correlate this graph of DPS to what we're seeing in TPS between the tanks also?

[Proletaria]

Would I be wrong to correlate this graph of DPS to what we're seeing in TPS between the tanks also?

Yes.

[Gellor]

Would I be wrong to correlate this graph of DPS to what we're seeing in TPS between the tanks also?

Pretty every much warrior attack also has an additional threat modifier of some kind (Shield Slam +770, Devastate 5% of AP(10% with Glyph), Heroic Strike +259, etc), so ourTPS is a lot higher than just modifying our DPS by the defensive stance threat modifier. Lets not forget Vigilance as well.

[drae]

Pretty every much warrior attack also has an additional threat modifier of some kind (Shield Slam +770, Devastate 5% of AP(10% with Glyph), Heroic Strike +259, etc), so ourTPS is a lot higher than just modifying our DPS by the defensive stance threat modifier. Lets not forget Vigilance as well.

Which is what we refer to as "Baked in threat".

And it sucks. Baking in threat is a older mechanic reminiscent of when warriors were the only tanks. It is probably the single biggest reason our DPS is so low, if our DPS was on par with other tanks AND we had all this baked in threat, no other tank would come close to our single target TPS.

I say the defensive stance modifier (and Frost presence) are good threat modifiers. It scales, it's applied the same across the board. While stupid crap like the +259 threat on Heroic Strike doesn't scale and is not resultant of doing damage. Vigilance is even worse; relying on another raid member for your TPS is dumb. Plus threats without damage is what got warriors into this mess to begin with, they've had to up the static threat addition on warrior abilities mid-xpack 2 or 3 times before.

Baked in threat is dumb. Give us more sustained damage, more then likely the best place is in the form of white damage (and therefor HS/Cleave) increases or AttT changes. Or remove the penalty from defensive stance. If prot damage is really such a problem in arena's, then nerf the way Shield Slam + Shield Block interacts with ArP.

[Gellor]

I totally agree, having some threat modifiers on some attacks is fine, but all of them? Conc Blow and Shockwave don;t really count due to lengthy CDs relatively speaking.'

[Zoal]

regardless, I still feel as if - as a warrior - I am on the bottom of DPS and TPS barrel.

and without looking too hard - it seems the only "baked in threat" that scales is that of sunder (and the devastate component) so in terms of DPS -> TPS, it is just DPS + static_baked + the small amount of scaling hidden threat

[Unger]

Yes.

Not sure I agree with this.... its tough to see who is really generating more threat initially....with all the tricks and misdirection going on.... but there are times when I feel like my Druid tank guildie pulls significantly higher TPS as well as DPS....

[TomHuxley]

I haven't seen any issue with TPS. Even in my survival set and spec (below hit cap and exp softcap, no Impale or DW) I have no serious issue holding threat compared to the Druids and DKs I tank with. This last week was the first time I've tanked with a pally since they got uber in early fall, and his TPS seemed a bit higher...but at the time he also had a better weapon than I did. Either way it was nothing to be worried about.

But doing damage is different. It's not only a tank-balance issue, it's a quality of life issue in almost all facets of the game. And it should be fixed, especially since it needn't be _that_ hard.

[Warwench]

I'd caution against drawing conclusions between DPS and TPS from this data as TPS is a fickle beast to capture correctly and not all classes have the same correlation between DPs and TPS, there are drastic differing modifiers.

[Proletaria]

I'd caution against drawing conclusions between DPS and TPS from this data as TPS is a fickle beast to capture correctly and not all classes have the same correlation between DPs and TPS, there are drastic differing modifiers.

This. (Hence the "Yes," from my earilier post)

Unger, to say "more dps = more tps," is an over-simplification of the process by which all tanks build threat. Specifically it fails to take into account threat modifiers. You don't tend to see warriors gripe about single target tps because it isn't really an issue, but that is FAR from the case with their dps (evidenced here in this very thread).

[Zoal]

This. (Hence the "Yes," from my earilier post)

Unger, to say "more dps = more tps," is an over-simplification of the process by which all tanks build threat. Specifically it fails to take into account threat modifiers. You don't tend to see warriors gripe about single target tps because it isn't really an issue, but that is FAR from the case with their dps (evidenced here in this very thread).

I gripe about single target TPS if what I am attacking does not provide me enough rage to heroic strike. If I am left with only enough rage for the base rotation my threat is abysmal