Fair enough, I am aware that other classes can and often do apply sunders or similar effects during boss fights, however there are quite a few forums/threads stating the loss of overall dps when any toon but a warrior tank has to apply sunders. Many of those threads are on this website.
As for raids buffs and utility, each class is supposed to bring something to the raid which would increase the chances of a successful fight.
I would be curious to see some figures of raids where a warrior tank is not applying sunders and the corresponding dps figures and the uptime of sunders for non-warrior tanked fights. True, there are quite a few players and guilds who will diligently keep every debuff up on the bosses even is a specific class is not present to apply them.
I am not implying that warrior tank dps is acceptable as it stands. Personally, I find it pissing me off quite often, but I still (perhaps stubbornly) am looking for validation of sub-standard dps due to something a warrior tank brings to the table that no other tanks can.
Otherwise, especially in light of the rumored nerfs coming our way from PVP concerns (that is a rant just waiting to happen), what is the point of playing a warrior tank?
Fury doesn't really loose any DPS keeping sunders up. If you've got two DPS warriors, you're only loosing 2.5 GCD's each off the pull. And after that, refreshing the buff is trivial with the holes in the fury rotation, and how much excess rage fury has right now.Originally Posted by Kilrum
True. Still looking (stubbornly) for dps suckage.
I believe that rogues can also do an expose armor debuff. There may be a drop in dps.... but I dont know how much.
As fury, keeping sunders up is really only a problem if its a short fight (less than a min). Anything more than that allows for a fury warrior to find the dead spots in a rotation to reapply the debuff.
Here is my WoL report for last night. We only did Festergut and Rotface and decided to wait for Prof after 2 pulls since it was really laggy.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
I pulled 3763 as the tank going second (since I have a little better gear, I ate the first 3 stack) and our druid tank did 4617. Total dps was 1,044,325 for me and 1,246,978 for him.
I know that the stacks skew the numbers a little.... but still. Its a bummer.
Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....
The "problem" is that Sunder is only applied automaticly by prot warriors, the same way Vindication is applied by paladins.
It's like having a DPS warrior demo shout because your ret pala didn't spec vindication.
Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
Wartotem, you think a fury warrior loses 202,653 damage in a 4.5 minute fight keeping up sunders? I'd say that its probably a fraction of that.....
Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....
Post this to the official forums IMO. Write it well (spell check it) and be respectful.
it's already there.
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Prot DPS Comparison
/agree. Any chance we can get the author of this post to go official? Either that or use the batphone they set up for Cider straight to blizzard.....
Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....
It started on the blizzard tank forums. They've already seen it. GC's already mentioned that warrior DPS while tanking is too low. Of course, they acknowledged there were problems with heroic strike and rage this time last year.
Maybe we'll get a minor buff, maybe not. We sure don't get a 20% buff until they re-balance things come Cata because of fears of Prot warrior PVP. (which I think is hilarious, but what can you do)
Blizzard is responsible for the balancing of the classes for both PvP and PvE. If they painted themselves into a corner, I feel badly, but that is no excuse for leaving a tanking class 20% behind their peers with no offsetting benefit.
To put it more bluntly.... they got themselves into this mess.... now they should get themselves out. Nerf PVProt or whatever they have to do... but let the tanks compete on a level playing field.
Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....
Is it a problem? Sure. Should they fix it? Sure.
They've probably got a -lot- of problems to fix. No to mention an expansion to design.
Warrior tanks are still comfortably beating content. We're not broken. So convincing anyone that it's a priority issue is going to be a hard sell.
Then let's just take the easy fix and nerf the other tank classes DPS back to prot warrior levels? If the howls of protest come out from other tank classes, then apparently tank DPS IS an issue and they need to fix it.
That would help with aoe threat for sure...their concern was they didn't want it to be part of single target rotation (rather, they didn't want it spammed as a DPS ability on single targets). I don't really care, although it does fell more magic-y and less warrior-ish. Still, if it worked that would be fine by me.
Maybe they could make rend work for prot warriors sort of like it does for arms warriors? It puts up a 15 second dot that increases the damage from at least some of our abilities? To make it more PvP friendly (i.e. non-buffing) make it only work when we have 5 sunders up?
With all due respect to Kavtor, this has been a problem with warrior tanks for a long time. I know that not a lot could come from Blizzard as a result of our complaints.... but this is the only medium we have in order to make our case.
Further, if we can strike a nerve with Xav or Cider or any other higher profile WOW players, it may be possible for them to get some attention that the rest of us cannot.
Maybe not, but I am not going sit the sidelines. Its been over a year.....
Last edited by Unger; 01-14-2010 at 01:50 PM.
Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....
Honestly Unger...while I have the highest respect for Cider, Xav, and the many other tanks here, everyone starts out as no one on the forums. The key is to make clear, well reasoned and data-driven arguements, not merely to invoke celebrity as a way to get attention. The fact that there hasn't been a blue post in Warwench's thread may be as much about them not wanting to attract more QQ than them avoiding the issue.
As long as we're not talking about the one that was only for 4 targets.
I agree with you Tom.... Im just saying whatever it takes....
Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....
Can we also get someone to work on putting dk's on the chart. For the love of pete that is annoying.
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