Loot rules question
We have had some major disagreements in the guild lately when handing out loot and I would like some advice about how to think about it. We currently have the system of /roll on mainspec and while this might seem simple enough people have very different views of which classes can roll on what.
Last night we had a case of an arms warrior rolling on Band of the Bone Colossus and getting the highest roll. This immediately led to massive complaints from the rogues, hunters and druids that this was their type of loot, not his. I asked the other officers and after a bit of a debate where some pointed out that we had discussed this before (but as far as I was concerned not decided) I made the decision to give the warrior the ring. The whole thing led to one of the rogues leaving the raid and a druid threatning to also do so. How childish this might even sound we actually more than one good guild member over this and they werent even part of the raid.
Today, still feeling that the decision wasnt all that wrong I checked the numbers out in rawr and found that the agility ring the warrior got was by far better than the strength one from the gunship (which some people said was HIS type of ring). Not sure how accurate the warrior part of rawr is but I dont think its that bad.
The most popular oppinion among the officers (and guild) seems to be that warriors and dks shouldnt be allowed to roll on agility rings/necks and I do see the issue of some classes beeing able to roll on more loot than others but still...
(and yes a loot council is prob good but even that would need these rules otherwise its just making it up as we go along)
I'm the master looter for our raids and in all honesty, I would have just said "melee dps and hunters roll" even though I use ClassLoot to tell me what classes benefit most from the ring. Had the warrior won, I would have given it to him.
Mind you, I don't play melee dps, never have and probably never will. My paladin is a tank, my warrior is a tank, and my level 1 rogue holds a 6 tab alt bank hehe.
Lore just did 2 weekly marmot vids all about loot systems. It sounds like you should get some discussion going within your guild about it, maybe using Lore's overview as a starting point. If you don't have a decent loot system which your players have faith in, it will cause you many headaches. It doesn't have to be the perfect system (there is no such thing or there wouldn't be a list of options!) but it's critical that your raid/guild members understand it and buy into it.
Yeah we are discussing it a bit more now I think and most likely we will end up with some kind of loot council.
Its amazing what can make or break a raid. Yesterdays ICC25 run started with Marrowgar and 3 wipes. We have downed him before but this week we must have had 15 wipes in total in not more. The successful kill yesterday happeneed after I said "I will personally give 100g to the person with the highest percentage of his damage on spikes". Was more of a joke than anything else but since we had wiped for hours on him and after that immediately killed him I suspect it actually made a difference. Oh btw a rogue won :-)
Will check that out, thanks.
Sounds to me like you're rogues/druids are immature and not being good team members by leaving the raid when something doesn't go their way. I personally wouldn't bring them to another raid if it meant I had to sit for a week while I beg borrow and steal warm bodies to replace them. I'm not suggesting that's how your guild should handle it, but I have very low tolerance for this kind of thing - been there done that - no amount of bargaining and hand holding will solve a maturity issue.
Originally Posted by PatrikL
Every loot system has a flaw, and this is the flaw with /roll mainspec. To mitigate this kind of thing you almost need the entire zone loot table broken out into who gets priority for rolls on each item by main spec. Something like a ring of this kind could be decent for a Fury Warrior, but Best in Zone for a Hunter. So for /rolls to really work you ultimately need to be bringing people who won't blow a gasket when a piece of loot they want is won by someone else.
The popular opinion from your officers would be wrong according to Landsoul's spreadsheet - http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t37462-w...n_spreadsheet/
The main reason being how good Armor Penetration is for Warriors, and Haste is good as well for Fury - typically the non-armor items that have it are Necks/Rings with Agility and of course Trinkets and Guns & Bows. However, Armor Penetration is also very useful to Rogues, Hunters and Feral Druids as well as DKs. Hence the heart of the problem is not your decision to give it to the highest roll, a Warrior, but with raiders who need to understand that this like many items is good for a large number of specs/classes and not ragequit when they don't get it.
Best of luck, been in your shoes and it is not a fun place to be.
Last edited by kolben; 02-01-2010 at 07:51 AM.
Originally Posted by Kalken
I think the main argument against letting warraiors and dks getting those agility items is that they can then be considered for more items than the rogues/hunters/druids can since they will also roll on strength items. In one way I can understand that argument and in another one not.
An upgrade is an upgrade.
When I see something is a bigger upgrade for someone else, I give it to them.
Neither is right and neither is wrong. Loot is going to be up to opinion, because, even if you can mathematically prove that one item is a higher DPS (healing, survival/threat) boost for one person than another, that isn't the fundamental reason a piece of loot is given out, at least not to everyone. Lore mentions it in his guide (which he was awesome for doing btw), but it boils down to different types of people and different views on how people should win.
Some people believe that chance is the most fair judge. Some people believe that what's best for the raid is to give people the biggest upgrades they can get. And yet others believe that upgrades from individual pieces are so inconsequential that people should rather be given loot as a reward and something they earn, over anything else.
None is better than the other, but, ultimately, you have an opinion one way or the other. Your officers have an opinion one way or the other. As the leaders of the raid (and presumably a guild?) it is up to you to decide which method is most appealing to you, which makes the most sense to you in how it helps the raid group and its members. This may, and more likely than not by the sounds of things, turn some people off, and there's a good chance they will leave. But that's the price one pays for making decisions, not everyone will agree. However, establishing a solid, stable loot system and sticking to it will eventually bring the kind of people you want to raid with: people who you have fun raiding with AND people who do not spend time fighting over loot because they all agree in the loot system involved.
The fact that you feel some level of dissonance in your current system suggests you might want to make a change, but what you change it to is up to what you believe is the best system.
I think they tend to over simply things like: warriors and dks should stack strength and nothing else and rogues/hunters should take agility. Dont want to continue the discussion with them since they seem to have made up their minds but I do foresee a problem with having to explain this to the warriors in the guild. On the other hand I hope I dont have to be the person that has to do it.
Originally Posted by kolben
A little bit fun seeing that Landsoul has two agility rings as BiS :-)
Most people don't understand their class as well as they should, I've come to find this out since I began raiding. I, admittedly, will learn new things all the time as well and so I'm not immune to it. But, on the whole, I would say that I know what to look for in my class more often than not. The problem is that people will see simple guides and form simple opinions and they won't deviate on them.
Originally Posted by PatrikL
However, it often seems that this is a symptom of a much larger problem that includes fails in raiding due to people not understanding the functioning of the game as well as they should. At what point does it become more work than play I guess?
Yeah I do agree with giving it to the person who gets the biggest upgrade in general. There are however two problems with that:
Originally Posted by Lulia
1. The practical problem of determining who that is unless it is very clear.
2. The problem of the person who has invested more time and money into getting good gear already and therefore not beeing able to get more in a long time. I believe this might be a big problem with people investing a lot of time/money into crafted gear.
Well no I am only an officer in the guild but since I often get to lead the raid even when someone else has done the invites from the start I am frequently faced with these problems. In this particular case the GM wasnt in the raid since he come on a little late but even then these thoughts was of a more general type so that we establish good rules for the future that the most number of people are happy with (saying most since all will not be happy whichever way we do it).
Originally Posted by Lulia
Will think this over a bit more and try to specify exaclty what rules we do it by. I think that no matter which way we decide to do it, the most important thing is that everyone knows it. Not sure the rest of the officers think its equally important but I'll have to convince them. Since I do not agree with the them all it is especially important to get things down in writing so people do not feel that we make things up as we go along (which I am certain will cause even more problems)
Yes I agree completely. This is also a problem I feel when picking out members for a certain raid since we do not have any set groups. We run 3 groups for ICC10 and one for ICC25. In the 10 mans we try to rotate people a bit so that most who want to can go but in the 25 mans we tend to pick who we think are the best for the job. Many think that all getting to go equally much is fair while I believe that prioritizing the best players is more fair since they have usually invested more time into their spec/gear/knowledge (and sometimes pure god given talent). Every single time we pick out a group someone is qq-ing about why they arent getting a spot in the raid and how they never get to go. If there is one thing in the game that would make me quit it would be this.
Originally Posted by Lulia
Well as with many things, sometimes one has to do some things which might not be the most fun at the time to get to the really good stuff :-)
Originally Posted by Lulia
BLUF -- bottom line up front.
your established loot rules were main spec roll.
regardless of the ring being a 'better' upgrade for the rogue or druid.
it's an upgrade for the warrior. and he won the roll. it' not like it's leather....
ArP is more valuable to MM hunters than Surv Hunters ( until a certain level ) would the MM have priority?
there will always (well almost always) be some 'misspent' item budget points. there are 5 daggers about ilvl 200 with >5 int and >5 mp5. there are 20 above ilvl 200 with >5 int and >5 hit. do you limit your disc priest to roll on the +mp5? regardless of the int and sp?
by leaving a raid or threatening to leave a raid over the establish loot rules, the rogue and druid showed themselves as being not team players.
and not someone that i would want in a guild.
Anyone ever notice that the 213 (Hammerhead Sharkskin Cloak) emblem cloak for dps has agility/stamina - guess Blizz left Warrior/DK dps out in the cold back when that was the good loot.
We use dkp in 25 mans and rolls in 10 man. In 10, main spec can roll on as many pieces as they want - theory being we do this every week, keeping generally the same groups together, so we'll all get the pieces we need. People will pass on gear to help others gear up - in the end having everyone geared gets us to the real good stuff in 25 mans. For example, I think by now all the hunters have the 10 man Bow from Deathwisperer, so it ends up getting de'd, makes me want to cry.
Cataclysm's itemization changes can't come soon enough. It's pretty ridiculous how Blizzard still allow Strength classes to benefit more from Agi itemization than they do the items specifically designed with them in mind. Agi items are already very hotly contested between the classes that they are designed for, Plate classes desiring them too just aggravates the situation. It's been a problem for a long time, yet they've done very little to address the core issue and tried to band-aid over the problem with class-talent changes.
Still, my personal opinion on the OPs situation would be that a Plate DPS should always pass over Agi items to an Agi-based class thet needs them. Not really as a matter of 'X is better than Y' but as a matter of fairness and courtesy. I'd do the same for you.
Really think that the dps warrior should pass on items considered BiS (not in this case but for both BiS rings for warriors are agility ones) for him just because so many others can also use them? I dont disagree with you that its a less than ideal situation with so many classes wanting the same gear but thats how it is at the moment.
Originally Posted by Raysere
That's a tough call. It depends a lot on your kind of raid, honestly. Would a fury warrior be pissed off if a feral rolled on Cryptmaker?
Our guild has a simple roll with a 'don't be a douche' clause, and most everyone tries to make sure that if someone has some significantly bad luck with gear it evens out in the end. But even then, mistakes are made (such as giving hunters a weapon upgrade over ferals). They tend to iron themselves out though.
In the above example I'd probably just give it to the rogues and hunters. Our guild tends to give main spec of that armor type/rating type priority over the next, even if it would be good for them. Ultimately this is the sort of thing that should be set in stone; one suggestion I have is that you specifically state who can and can't roll on what pieces of gear in general (jewelry, armor types, etc) and then if people want something specific they state as such on the forums publicly beforehand. Everyone knows the rules. And while people might not love it, at least it won't surprise anyone. The most important thing you can do is make sure to avoid looking like you're doing any favoritism.
most posts here are missing the main point IMHO.
two guildies and raiders, left the raid or threatened too. over established loot rules.
yes it would have been nice it the warrior passed, but it was well within the rules for him to roll on that piece.
It's within the letter but not the spirit. I mean it's the same 'letter' that would allow a hunter to roll on a polearm over a DK or druid, and that would be similarly stupid and outrageous.
They were reasonable to leave, I think. The trend and the established 'rule' had been set. If all they're interested in is gear (or that is their primary interest) then the guild has clearly ruled against their interests. Why stay?
Guildies that leave the raid over loot, especially loot doled out under rules stated in advance, should not be in the guild anymore.