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Thread: Hit Vs. Expertise

  1. #1

    Hit Vs. Expertise

    Hi,
    I'm a Protection Warrior. Based on the gear I got from TOC25/TOGC10 (IE before I entered ICC) I had about 170 Hit Rating and 42 Expertise. I found that to be an excellent balance threat wise.

    I found the gear from ICC (10 or 25) had substantially less expertise than what my gear had. So I started to look at what it's going to look like after I get upgrades X or Y. Eventually I realized that with the gear currently available I would end up with about 230 Hit Rating and around 32-35 Expertise.

    Soft expertise cap: 26
    Hard expertise cap: 56
    [Correct those numbers if they're wrong, please]

    After hitting the soft expertise cap, and if not considering the possible Parry-Haste, is it true that threat wise, 1% expertise is equal to 1% hit?

    Hit also helps with Taunts, TC and DemoShout. Expertise reducing the chance to be parried, also helps not getting Parry-hasted when applicable.


    Again, my question is mainly about threat and only considering Hit and Expertise. I know that getting the 2-set bonus will increase TPS and that the additional Strength will also help, but I would like to have an answer in regards to Expertise/Hit only.

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    You'd do fine with 0 hit, glyph for taunt on saurfang and use vigilance = gg.

    There's nothing wrong with using older gear if you feel your threat isn't up to snuff, but threat is more dependent on how you press your buttons than anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  3. #3
    you'll do less threat with 0 hit than with 200 hit, just because you'll miss a whole lot more, and this no matter what rotation you have.

    I'm really interested in the comparison Expertise Vs Hit after soft Exp cap.

    In other words:

    - is 8% hit + 8% expertise Superior/Equal/Inferior to 0% hit + 16% expertise

    (don't take into account Taunts, TC, DemoShouts and parry haste)

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    Quote Originally Posted by elunesbuddy View Post
    you'll do less threat with 0 hit than with 200 hit, just because you'll miss a whole lot more, and this no matter what rotation you have.

    I'm really interested in the comparison Expertise Vs Hit after soft Exp cap.

    In other words:

    - is 8% hit + 8% expertise Superior/Equal/Inferior to 0% hit + 16% expertise

    (don't take into account Taunts, TC, DemoShouts and parry haste)
    Slightly less, yes due to less attacks connecting. But no amount of hit will improve your threat if you don't press the buttons and spec correctly for it.

    As far as comparison after the softcap and not taking into account all of that important stuff you are leaving out, expertise is still better than hit simply because dodge and parry occur before miss on the avoidance table. It's rolled first. If you discount THAT along with all of the other very important things that you're leaving out for the sake of simplicity? Then sure, they are equal after the dodge cap.


    EDIT: See here. Tankingtips - Expertise is always better than hit
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elunesbuddy View Post
    you'll do less threat with 0 hit than with 200 hit, just because you'll miss a whole lot more, and this no matter what rotation you have.

    I'm really interested in the comparison Expertise Vs Hit after soft Exp cap.

    In other words:

    - is 8% hit + 8% expertise Superior/Equal/Inferior to 0% hit + 16% expertise

    (don't take into account Taunts, TC, DemoShouts and parry haste)
    Not taking those factors into account would make them completely equal. As it stands, it's better to miss than to be parried and that's why expertise has always been better.

    True Knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.
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  6. #6
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    You answered your own question really. The hit helps with your melee hit as well as spell hit. After the expertise softcap, 1 expertise rating is an equal reduction to parry as 1 hit rating is to missing. So the percentages will add up to the same, however the hit provides a MARGINAL increase in TPS due to it helping with spell hit as well. In the end I prefer expertise to avoid the parry hits on bosses that still have it.

    Disclaimer: I might be an idiot and therefore everything I just said is wrong, if it is I'm sure somebody will rightfully dominate my argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillah View Post
    You answered your own question really. The hit helps with your melee hit as well as spell hit. After the expertise softcap, 1 expertise rating is an equal reduction to parry as 1 hit rating is to missing. So the percentages will add up to the same, however the hit provides a MARGINAL increase in TPS due to it helping with spell hit as well. In the end I prefer expertise to avoid the parry hits on bosses that still have it.

    Disclaimer: I might be an idiot and therefore everything I just said is wrong, if it is I'm sure somebody will rightfully dominate my argument.
    This is wrong. The only spell that a warrior use that relies on spell hit is taunt. We're talking about not using that in this ideal setup which makes no sense whatsoever. The only thing that would rely on hit and not expertise is shockwave, which for this comparison should also be left out?

    Hit is not better than expertise because as stated above parry still comes before miss on the combat table. It's rolled second to dodge, which is pushed off by being softcapped.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  8. #8
    Thanks. I left out those stuff because some bosses have parry-haste disabled, and because when I need my taunts to land I use glyph of taunt.

    Having parries being rolled before misses is clearly what is making expertise better and that's the kind of answer I needed. Because without that there would not be any reason to keep an Expertise item with a Hit equivalent (example: 245 emblem helm Vs. lady's deathwhisper's).

    That complicates thing in terms of choosing an item, because we don't know precisely how much Hit you need to compensate for Expertise. To take that helm example again, the other stats being way better makes you want to take it over the emblem one. I guess, since it's an item that would go in the set I use the most, I was just trying to estimate how much my threat will suffer from this.

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    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...ng-threat.html


    Take a look here. This is created during Sunwell times but a lot of the philosophy holds true in Lich King, even given all of the buffs that prot has had since. He talks about still being able to generate massive threat for your guild when you have to gear for survival and there's very low chance you have anything like hit or expertise on any of your gear. Being able to put out enough threat to beat the enrage when you're completely rage-starved is a talent that's best put to use when you know how and when to use your abilities for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  10. #10
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    All through ToC, I had very low hit, like 70 or so, and about 26 expertise. Never had a problem with threat. Lately with gear upgrades from ICC, though, I've been dropped to 96 hit rating and only 10 expertise. I've been surprised how it's affected my threat. Once I get going, I'm absolutely fine to hold aggro, but sometimes startups can be really hairy.

    For example, the other night in Lady Deathwhisper, I picked up one fanatic, charged the second, and it dodge/parried/missed a shield slam, a devastate, and another shield slam. Meanwhile, an angry hunter was yelling over Vent about how he'd taken aggro, feigned death, and still taken aggro again. (Yes, I know he should have just misdirected me, but that wasn't the point.) This sort of this happens at least a couple of times per raid now where my opening threat moves are avoided and I can't initiate aggro well enough.

    I'm not saying it's bad enough that I'm going to start gemming for expertise (though I might do a stam/expertise instead of stam/dodge for my meta requirement), but I won't be sad either when expertise starts showing up on gear stats again. It sucks to miss those opening moves.

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    Nothing is "rolled" before anything else. It's a single roll system where certain number ranges dictate how the attack will play out. Certain effects drop off the combat table before others do, (this may be what your referring too) Crushing blows, then ordinary hits are pushed off first, then block, etc.

    The Attack Table

    It still has crushing blows listed, but all in all it's correct (crushing blows can still happen, just take a mob +4 lvls above you.)

    As for hit vs. expertise, I much prefer to stack expertise. Anecdotal evidence sure; but I've done all of ToGC with no more then 22 hit rating (single target set) and don't have problems with threat. There are numerous reasons, but the biggest one is I can exploit the taunt hit glyph, there is no "melee expertise glyph" to exploit. This allows me to stack a single stat and pretty much ignore the other, which while makes my gearing choices easier, it also allows me to use less total itemization for threat stats.

    As previously mentioned, threat is less dependent on your hit / expertise levels then it is on your rotation / HS Spam, talents, and glyph choices. The single best way to increase your TPS output is to increase the number of heroic strikes you do.

    In the long run pick the items with the most stam and armor, don't worry bout threat stats till people start passing you. If they do, mash your buttons harder, take the devastate glyph, or vigilance a better player .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    This is wrong. The only spell that a warrior use that relies on spell hit is taunt. We're talking about not using that in this ideal setup which makes no sense whatsoever. The only thing that would rely on hit and not expertise is shockwave, which for this comparison should also be left out?

    Hit is not better than expertise because as stated above parry still comes before miss on the combat table. It's rolled second to dodge, which is pushed off by being softcapped.
    Blast my playing a druid I thought TC and demo were still on spell hit.

  13. #13
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    TC is affected by hit rating, not expertise, and I believe Demo is the same way, but if I'm not mistaken, they're based on melee hit, while taunt is on spell hit.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...ng-threat.html


    Take a look here. This is created during Sunwell times but a lot of the philosophy holds true in Lich King, even given all of the buffs that prot has had since. He talks about still being able to generate massive threat for your guild when you have to gear for survival and there's very low chance you have anything like hit or expertise on any of your gear. Being able to put out enough threat to beat the enrage when you're completely rage-starved is a talent that's best put to use when you know how and when to use your abilities for it.
    thanks for the additional info. Though I think the point of my thread was kinda missed through. I have not said at any point that threat was an issue, I was more curious than anything after rough calculation I realized that after taking a couple things out, both hit and exp seemed equivalent.

    You answered my question by telling me about the order in which the combat table does the rolls.

    For rolling with all the other tanking classes, I don't think warriors should envy any other class at least threat wise. If I have the rage, I'll have to cut my HS to avoid pulling from other tanks. Maybe they're not doing a good job or not pushing enough. I just like pushing threat/dps whenever survivability isn't a concern..

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    TC is affected by hit rating, not expertise, and I believe Demo is the same way, but if I'm not mistaken, they're based on melee hit, while taunt is on spell hit.
    TC, demo, taunt are all affected by hit. only the hit cap for those abilities are different.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    This is wrong. The only spell that a warrior use that relies on spell hit is taunt. We're talking about not using that in this ideal setup which makes no sense whatsoever. The only thing that would rely on hit and not expertise is shockwave, which for this comparison should also be left out?
    Thunderclap for sure and I believe demo shout also use spell hit to land (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/4...ing-8-hit.html).

    And while you can ignore them as dps/tps moves. Having to reapply them because they didn't land the first time will cause you to shift your rotation and lose dps/tps.

    Hit is not better than expertise because as stated above parry still comes before miss on the combat table. It's rolled second to dodge, which is pushed off by being softcapped.
    I'm not sure what you're implying. But with a one roll system it doesn't matter what order things are on the table. The only exception is that defensively it matters that block comes before hit/crushing/crit (the later two shouldn't come up for tanking).

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    We're not counting thunderclap or demo in this equation, per the OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  18. #18
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    I'm arguing that you should. Because not only does it impact your rotation but expertise does nothing for those moves.

    But as per the OP, he's also not accounting for Parry-haste in which case Shockwave alone will make hit better than expertise past the softcap.

  19. #19
    Agreed about TC; but not demo as if you have (like me) a paly spec for vindication in which case it goes out of your rotation.

    All in all, I don't think replacing Expertise by Hit (past soft cap) is making a huge difference threat wise, especially on bosses that do not parry-haste. It's even more true if the item you are getting is a decent STR upgrade (to take the example of the helm again).

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