Death Knight Struggling with AoE.

[!3M]

I did not name call you, calm down. I said what you said makes no sense, which it didn't from my perspective. I also did explain in detail why it was so. Please read comments fully and objectively.

Haha, ok. I will concede with your suggestions to keeping IT for the increased disease tick, but I would still swap out the Oblit glyph for DnD if I was struggling with AoE.

(optional Unbreakable Armor)>Howling Blast (HB)>HB>Blood Strike (BS)>BS>Rune usage (Frost strike, Icebound Fortitude, Antimagic Shell, etc.)>HB>HB>HB and so on.

Maybe I'm not at your level (in gear and content) yet but I don't really see how having to wait 10secs for HB CD while you BS/BB mobs (and I'm assuming you're recommending tab targeting and letting FF tick to generate threat) hold a group of mobs during an AoE session. If I'm missing something that removes HB CD please tell me where to look.

The problem with removing Oblit for DnD is that he would exchange one problem for another. If we set aside the fact that DnD is not the answer to Frost AoE problems, he would now lose TPS on single target because his Obliterates have been gimped. In choosing AoE strength vs Single Target strength, the Single target concerns win out, as downing trash packs by aoe is not what gets you through an instance/raid, its downing the bosses with single target tanking. That's the most challenging aspect of threat in tanking. If you can't deal with the trash, then you need to gear up & practice at the next lower content (heroics or lower instance if necessary).

Also on this, I don't really see obliterate as my staple threat generator in AoE situations as compared to RS (I'd use it only when HB is on CD). I guess this is the area which is causing some advice issues. The original request was to help him improve on his AoE threat, hence my advice. I will agree that AoE threat shouldn't be a problem as he is Frost Specced, and that worrying about single target (i.e. boss threat) is more important; but that's not his challenge is imho.

Where this falls apart is as follows:
1) Mobs don't stay in DnD, or stray in and out of DnD, but for some reason the DPS AoE manages to get them. Tanking skills need sharpening here.
2) The DPS significantly outgears the tank, and can blow past the 130% cushion. Nothing can stop it short of gearing the tank or threat-capping the DPS's output (or maybe getting some TotT-FOK / MD+Volley assistance). But that is just band-aid solution for a deeper problem

The aoe rotation information you have listed here is absolutely sound....

I guess you've summed it up pretty well with this, and yes the rotation doesn't look like what a frost DK would be using.

[zuke8675309]

What the previous poster said

Howling Blast is a 51pt talent for a reason. In an AoE situation use it early, use it often.

[Linkcdb]

I use, death and decay, Icy touch,Plague strike, pestilence, howling blast.

Thos way I get the 5% damage reduction from blade barrier, and the diseases con the trash.

[Insahnity]

Maybe I'm not at your level (in gear and content) yet but I don't really see how having to wait 10secs for HB CD while you BS/BB mobs (and I'm assuming you're recommending tab targeting and letting FF tick to generate threat) hold a group of mobs during an AoE session. If I'm missing something that removes HB CD please tell me where to look.

I didn't even talk about Rime procs, but that would do it (15% chance on obliterate). I also didn't talk about Deathchill or Killing machine procs, which would also help his aoe threat.

Cooldown is 8 seconds, not 10. However, I'm not always 100% on the mobs when I do my 1st HB, I need to keep moving to get to gather more up, which gives me time to do my 2nd HB. This drags the first set with me. Most killer aoe is stationary, i.e. (anything magey like blizzard/flamestrike), Hurricane, Rain of Fire, Volley, DnD, Consecrate, etc., and most DPS, even the epeen polishers, won't start if the mobs are on still the move. Your trouble spots are the instant or moveable aoes, such as Fan of Knives, Cat Swipe, Arcane Explosion, Holy Nova, Mind Sear, Thunderclap, whirlwind, Bladestorm, HB from fellow frost DKs, Seed of Corruption, Divine Storm, Holy Wrath (although the stun can sometimes help), Shaman's new fire totems, etc.
You could do HB>BB>BB>HB if you need to stand in one spot, and yes tab targetting is adviseable. You still get your death runes up for the next round. At the end of the day, the idea is that although it doesn't tick like DnD every 2 seconds, it does a blast of TPS, much like a prot warrior's thunderclap. Do enough Thunderclaps, and it will stick. Think of the threat profile as a sawtooth rather than a straight line, that's what thunderclap and HB are like, although HB is a bit less due to FF ticks.

Also on this, I don't really see obliterate as my staple threat generator in AoE situations as compared to RS (I'd use it only when HB is on CD). I guess this is the area which is causing some advice issues. The original request was to help him improve on his AoE threat, hence my advice. I will agree that AoE threat shouldn't be a problem as he is Frost Specced, and that worrying about single target (i.e. boss threat) is more important; but that's not his challenge is imho.

RS shouldn't be a huge threat generator in AoE situations either, but it's something that is done just the same, almost as unconsciously as breathing if possible.
Using Obliterates is ok in the 2-4 mob range where you still use HB, but in the infinite mob scenario (ony whelps, spider wing spiders from first pull, and so on), using runes for obliterate takes away rune usage for HBs. I think the issue here is that some people feel the need to use the runes as quickly as possible, which in most cases is true, but in some few instances, it's better to wait and use them strategically.

[!3M]

I didn't even talk about Rime procs, but that would do it (15% chance on obliterate). I also didn't talk about Deathchill or Killing machine procs, which would also help his aoe threat.

Haha, I guess I'm more conservative with my tanking. Deathchill is ok in my books (because it's controlled), but rimes and killing machines are just a means for me to alter my priorities on the fly (considered a bonus, so that I can either chain another group or use moves with less threat modifiers like FS as opposed to RS) instead of relying on them for the initial aggro grabbing.

Think of the threat profile as a sawtooth rather than a straight line, that's what thunderclap and HB are like, although HB is a bit less due to FF ticks.

I only do this if I'm in a group that works pretty well together, which is usually with people I know or a group that shows such potential. Otherwise, it's mostly a confused aggro fest (from my experiences in PUGs, mostly in 5mans with an occasional raid pug). Add that to the retarded 'fail tank' label these days (not that I care... I just hate that phrase when it comes out) and I'm more comfortable with maneuvering the group of mobs within the DnD area for as many ticks as possible.

I think the issue here is that some people feel the need to use the runes as quickly as possible, which in most cases is true, but in some few instances, it's better to wait and use them strategically.

I agree that DKs are all about using whatever resources we have strategically, and that sometimes waiting out for a skill far outweighs just blowing runes or RP. Which is why I'm usually in the conservative mode (with DnD) until the group shows me that it's ok to alter my skill priority.