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Thread: 3% Chance to Miss

  1. #1

    3% Chance to Miss

    Hi guys,

    I am trying to collate (within my guild) who can bring those nice tanky debuffs to a raid just to try and make sure I have them covered, atk pwr/atk spd are relatively easy but the miss debuff eludes me.

    Boomkins - Can provide the debuff at a pretty major dps loss (so im told)

    Hunters - Can provide the debuff but Scorpid Sting isn't in their rotation

    So I guess what I'm asking is how much of a loss are these 2 classes taking to bring this debuff to the table and how many of you out there actually have this debuff running?

    <4

  2. #2
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    Many raids simply don't account for this debuff being there.

    For a Balance Druid, unglyphing Insect Swarm alone will be around a 100-200 DPS loss on their standard rotation. And if you ask them to maintain 100% uptime, you are effectively requiring them to use Insect Swarm during every Eclipse buff costing them significantly more DPS, more along the lines of 1000-2000 DPS lost because you are wasting a global cooldown while buffed. So what you ask is two fold. You require them to unglyph the highest single benefit glyph (two piece tier 9 does make Glyph of Moonfire overtake it, at all other times Insect Swarm is the most powerful glyph). Then you require them to ignore their rotation rules to maintain 100% uptime on a debuff they would normally only renew at a certain point in the cycle known as the post-Eclipse phase (the end of an Eclipse buff where there is no longer sufficient time to cast one more of the buffed spell).

  3. #3
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    For me as an MM hunter, Serpent sting + Serpent dmg from Chimera shot is about 15% of my dps when looking at WoW logs. So its not realy viable to use scorpid sting.
    Not sure how much an survival hunter would lose in dps tho.

  4. #4
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    Surv Hunter would lose Serpent DPS + 3% from not having one up (Noxious Stings)

    Best options:
    1) Just take the damage (most fights are DPS fights anyway)
    2) If you don't have a Warrior, bring a BM hunter with a worm, he can do sunders as well then, which levels out the DPS loss from not being MM/Surv.
    3) Contemplate if swapping that boomkins glyph is worth it or not, even without 100% uptime.I don't know if Quinafoi assumed getting another glyph in in that 100-200 DPS, but even then, if the damage on the tank is really bad, 200 DPS is worth that 1-1.5% average avoidance for a tank imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  5. #5
    Well, saying 100-200 DPS is a big enough gain to include the gain from bringing in another glyph. If you'd like specific numbers, RAWR tells me that for my boomkin (retired pre-3.3, a lot of offspec resto gear anyway), the IS glyph would have given me 155 theoretical DPS, your best option for otherwise gave me 24 DPS. GoStarfall isn't negligible,

    But 2K DPS lost for maintaining uptime? Really? Unglyphed IS does do damage, and so you have to take that into account. Unglyphed I was getting about 7.6K total damage for an instant cast. Average eclipsed Wrath cast was 7.8K. Eclipsed Starfire averaged 13K a hit, but it has a longer cast time, so we'd be looking at 6560 damage per second of execution for Starfire as opposed to 6337 DPE for IS. Each of these replacements will occur once a minute under best case situation due to the CD on Eclipse.

    Now I'm more than willing to admit that I don't usually do boomkin theory, so I could easily be overlooking something. And I'm using old gear besides, so my numbers are probably fairly rough. But 2K DPS loss sounds like a gross exaggeration to me.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libicocco View Post
    Well, saying 100-200 DPS is a big enough gain to include the gain from bringing in another glyph. If you'd like specific numbers, RAWR tells me that for my boomkin (retired pre-3.3, a lot of offspec resto gear anyway), the IS glyph would have given me 155 theoretical DPS, your best option for otherwise gave me 24 DPS. GoStarfall isn't negligible,

    But 2K DPS lost for maintaining uptime? Really? Unglyphed IS does do damage, and so you have to take that into account. Unglyphed I was getting about 7.6K total damage for an instant cast. Average eclipsed Wrath cast was 7.8K. Eclipsed Starfire averaged 13K a hit, but it has a longer cast time, so we'd be looking at 6560 damage per second of execution for Starfire as opposed to 6337 DPE for IS. Each of these replacements will occur once a minute under best case situation due to the CD on Eclipse.

    Now I'm more than willing to admit that I don't usually do boomkin theory, so I could easily be overlooking something. And I'm using old gear besides, so my numbers are probably fairly rough. But 2K DPS loss sounds like a gross exaggeration to me.

    Several factors are being neglected.
    1. In order to maintain 100% uptime, DoT cliping is required. You never get full damage of Insect Swarm, you get roughly 15% less damage. So unglyphing and requiring 100% uptime alone lowers the DPET of this ability by 45%. The glyph doesn't cost you 150 DPS, it costs you 225 DPS.

    2. Eclipsed Wrath for myself comes out to slightly over 10,000. Insect Swarm is around a 3500 DPET drop when only accounting for 6 of 7 ticks.

    3. Insect Swarm can not proc Nature's Grace, this reduces the odds of permanently having Nature's Grace active during Eclipse. Forcing this during an Eclipse reduces your haste. WrathCalcs approximates my Nature's Grace uptime during Starfire Eclipse at 100% (I'm crit capped during Starfire Eclipse) and 92% uptime during Wrath Eclipse. If I insert into my rotation a spell which can not crit I significantly increase the odds of Nature's Grace falling off. By reducing your haste you not only cost yourself the one cast which Insect Swarm took the place of, but also potentially push an additional second cast off of the Eclipse buff duration.

    4. Best case scenario I only need to cast Insect Swarm once during an Eclipse costing my 3500 DPET and potentially a Nature's Grace hasted cast. Worst case I have to renew it twice during Eclipse doubling the loss.

    That is roughly a 300 DPS loss if it only costs one spell during Eclipse. So... Unglyphed Insect Swarm 100% uptime can cost you 1-4 buffed casts during an Eclipse, costing you a lot more DPS than just the 225 you lose from DoT clipping and losing the glyph. The loss then becomes around 500-1500 DPS lost. If you clip your DoT by more than one tick it costs more DPS. I also don't account for Moonfire priority over Insect Swarm and Moonfire being ignored and delayed in order to renew Insect Swarm resulting in DPS loss as well during post-Eclipse or no Eclipse phase.

    Bottom line. The cost for breaking the rules to the DPS rotation are far more costly than the cost of just taking off the glyph. In the event that 100% uptime on the debuff wasn't required, then the loss would match that defined by losing the glyph. However the actual avoidance gain will be around 1-2% chance to miss since there is typically a much higher downtime on Insect Swarm than Moonfire.

    *edit*
    Here's some actual testing results.

    I do 6000 DPS against a training dummy doing just the standard rotation, ignoring long cooldowns (Starfall and Force of Nature) from full mana to empty. Repeating this same conditions without removing the Insect Swarm glyph just attempting to follow the above conditions of maintaining 100% uptime, renewing Insect Swarm only between 12 second and 14 second mark (tick 6 and 7) I was able to do 5400 sustained DPS. Took away the Glyph of Insect Swarm and repeated it droped to 5250. Self buffed I lost 750 DPS by unglyphing Insect Swarm and maintaining 100% uptime. With full raid buffs and debuffs, since total DPS goes up, I would also expect the amount lost to go up. I break 8000 DPS on Koralon the Flame Watcher for example, similar conditions to a training dummy with a minor amount of movement required, a tank and spank for the most part. If I were attempting to maintain 100% Insect Swarm uptime, I'd expect to lose closer to 1000 DPS on a fight like this. The loss in DPS isn't just from unglyphing Insect Swarm, but also because you are overriding your DPS rotation rules.

    It may be acceptable to ask the Balance Druid to unglyph Insect Swarm and provide you with 1-2% extra mitigation. Expecting the full 3% at 100% uptime is far more costly than 150 DPS.
    Last edited by Quinafoi; 01-11-2010 at 09:08 PM.

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