My guild currently runs with a Prot pally, because they're broken and take no damage, and then a Druid tank as our core tank team. I follow as the swing tank when needed, and then a DK and another warrior follow behind me. Are warriors really considered the papertanks of wow now? is this the concensus among other guilds?
Absolutely not. I for exemple, I main tank for my guild.
Warrior a strong tanking class, not as much on the AoE front but that's ok.
Saying we are a papertank is quite an hyperbole. I don't take noticeably more damage than my main offtank wich is a paladin.
We work with a tank squad. Most of us have a melee dps specc (or are able to do even more: our druid can tank, kitty dps with the best of em and heal with his dual specc). We swap people in and out of roles as we see fit, I tend to tank a lot but that's mostly because I a) don't have the gear to support a fury specc and b) I just don't like melee dps all that much. That becomes a self furfilling prophecy of course since I get to pass all the good leftover stuff to the other offspecc candidates.
Either way. I am not by far a paper tank. I might have to punch my own survival buttons but at least I'm able to stagger them (though I must admit I was a bit strained on festergut). Bring the tank, not the class?
My lack of proper signature actually is a proud minimalistic stand
My guild runs with a couple Paladins and a couple Warriors (exact mix for a given run depends on availablity - RealLife can be a pain).
Our healers don't really have more trouble keeping the warriors up than the paladins, assuming equivalent gearing.
Popular opinion has little to do with reality in the WoW world of tanks.
There's always at least one class that is being maligned by the Sheep Court, but that doesn't actually mean they're weak.
95% of my raids I tank side by side with a Warrior, and we've had no tanking issues whatsoever.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Horacio
My guild GM, a druidhealer/boomkin and one of my best wow-friends a hunter and former very respected druid tank have the thought that druid tanking at the moment is so severely broken to the point of not even considering a druid tank for progression raiding.
I try to make them think different and that a balanced tanksquad is important and all classes can do the same thing. But they swear by me a warrior and my cotank a paladin tank for progression encounters.
I would just take that as a compliment. They might be saying its the class, but they are really saying that you know YOUR class and role, and that's better any day than any 60k HP bear.
/and are likely right, its the player not the class. Or the gear, GS be damned
I think the warrior=paper cliche died out after Ulduar, espcially when Anub's heroic mode became very public and people saw just how good block was going to be in icc.
Deathknights are currently taking more damage than warriors and their healthpools/armor figures are no longer miles apart. In-fact they're pretty close to identical.
Also something to consider is that paladin and dk tanks both generate mana and runic power by dodging and the nerf to dodge would be a bit of a nerf to threat generation. I believe warriors and druids both get rage by dodging or being hit but the former don't. Although they can still generate mana/rp through hitting and other means it's still seems like they would do less damage and less tps. This is how it appears to me as a healer/dps but i have been lvling a few tanks at the bottom of the pit. As a healer I prefer a warrior or paladin for pretty much anything i run especially icc where it seems the warriors can just cycle cds more and paladins have argent defender which is nice.
DK's don't get runic power from dodging unless you mean Scent of Blood. Avoidance does activate Rune Strike for them which is a pretty major piece of their threat.
Pallies get no mana from dodging. They get mana from getting healed, which means they have to get hit.
Warrior generate some rage from dodging like bears do (both via talents). Warriors at least still generate the lions share from getting hit. I can't speak to Druids.
Chill of the Throne did nerf DK threat generation which is why they got a threat generation buff to Rune Strike.
Blessing of Sanctuary.
Not exactly true With Blessing of Sanc you get 2% base mana for every dodge/parry/block but with spiritual attunement (1 point like most specs) you get 5% mana back of the amount healed not overhealed. Like all raid content near my gear lvl i stay near 100% mana all the time. O and dont forget Divine Plea is up during combat which with glyph give us 3% damage mitigation and 25% mana over 15 seconds.
Lol, I erased this spell from my mind when they took away the rage/rp component. Well I still remember it as 3% dmg reduction...
But even so, it took Blizz buffing it to give stamina and strength to get pallies to even use it over kings (when there was a single pally). Maybe those pallies were ignorant, or maybe SA was good enough for mana regen I don't really know.
Or Divine Plea is good enough that Pallies don't need to be hit either.
I'll stop guessing about a class I don't play now =)
Most raids pallies need all the buffs they provide. Sanc just helped the pally tank but in raids we get enough mana fighting a boss without it (it really shines on trash and heroics). ret and holy pallies didnt want it so you're stuck doing a big buff/little buff with not much of a change in just doing a big kings so we would just kings and make everyone happy. Now atleast ret pallies get strength and wont qq about dps loss and hey more strength more block value and tps.
Personally just give prot imroved kings with the mana and damage modifier and get it over with. And for that matter let resto druids grow apples and drop a basket like mages do with their table.
shield block, 40 second cooldown, 10 second duration, doubles block value, and increases block chance by 100%
marrowgar hits for 16k if your stacked properly
ilvl 245 geared prot warriors have about 1500bv
most also take critical block; which on average increases BV by 60% this increases our BV to ~2.4k
with SB up we're blocking for 4.8k on average, thats more than 25% of each hit, and we can have it up 25% of the time. assuming we're not standing in fire very long and stacking properly (and the other tanks are just as dead as us if they don't) thats a pretty hefty amount of damage mitigation
As warrior, I get called papertank whenever we get to the current content's hard hitting physical dps boss. Which isn't Marrowgar, but Festergut. Compared to the non-paper tank classes it just takes some more gear to be able to do them without feling overly squishy.
Last edited by Stengel; 01-14-2010 at 04:50 AM.
And I think (*anecdotal*) we came out on top. I've had some tank swapping issues where I can too easily pull threat back if I'm not careful after a taunt. That was never a concern before with the nasty spike threat a warrior shield slam can achieve.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
I've been pulling back off our druid tank on Stinky after the druid taunts lately too. This is odd, because he usually puts out a ton of threat, and at the same time, my warrior is often having initial aggro issues lately.
Yeah I've noticed alot of people saying they felt DK threat had gone up slightly, I must say I feel the opposite, my DK is reasonably geared and hit capped it could do with a little more exp but thats an aside.
Now that not to say I can't tear it up threat wise, but it's so random.. and ICC has made a big difference, alternatively I recently leveled my original vanilla warrior tank and he's currently using badge T9 and some newer heroic gear.. his threat is ludicrous compared to the DK.. 7ktps in a crappy 5man heroic no probs.
Personally I think RS needs a makeover, it's always been crap and now it's really being shown up for the poorly designed ability it is. As a warrior tank imagine if you had to rely on revenge for the bulk of your threat.. lol?
Dk threat hasn't gone anywhere up or down really. It just got less consistant. You're still prone to see spikes that are nice and high and equally prone (and more likely) to see a RS not proc, or miss early on and cause a dangerous threat-lapse that can kill your burst dps if they aren't careful.
With the average raid make-up i'm not having problems. I always have tricks and md anyhow. But in 10man without a rogue or hunter I could certainly see this being aggrivating.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks