+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 69

Thread: Armor bonuses over avoidance in icc?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    3

    Armor bonuses over avoidance in icc?

    My raid leader and I were talking after a raid and he brought up an interesting point about possibly stacking armor instead of avoidance while under the effects of chill of the throne.

    He showed me something I'm surprised I didn't know -- that dodge rating (not dodge, but dodge rating) has diminishing returns. Meaning the more dodge rating I have, the less dodge I get per point of dodge rating, and despite my dodge being only 8% unbuffed in ICC, the penalty to my dodge still applies as though it were 28%.

    Hence, he was wondering if maybe armor will start to have more value than avoidance as the numbers stack up. Anyone know?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    387
    Armor over avoidance has been recommended long before ICC.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    643
    I don't think anyone was stacking avoidance to begin with and has been focusing on EH. On normal modes it honestly doesn't matter but I can almost guarentee that in heroic modes EH will be the clear king since it almost always has in hardmodes.

    The armor on the offset pieces are worth HUGE amounts of stamina if you look at EH and is are much better pieces than any other normal ICC 25 loot. Avoidance hasn't lost any value, going from 7-8% dodge is the same upgrade as going from 27-28% dodge.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Mijk View Post
    He showed me something I'm surprised I didn't know -- that dodge rating (not dodge, but dodge rating) has diminishing returns. Meaning the more dodge rating I have, the less dodge I get per point of dodge rating, and despite my dodge being only 8% unbuffed in ICC, the penalty to my dodge still applies as though it were 28%.

    Thanks.
    and unsurprisingly, adding 100 dodge rating will probably still net you more avoidance than adding 100 parry rating. The values of each stat in comparison to each other is not changing because of the Chill.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Armor vs Avoidance is not usually a choice. You can't particularly gem for Armor (except through Agi), but you can for avoidance.

    If you're talking trinkets though, see Karlhungus's comments above.

    Also, for some light reading:
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...-survival.html
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    166
    It is a choice as you collect gear. For example, I swap between the Marrowgar tanking neck and Legionnaire's Gorget depending on how much armor I want to stack. Similarly, I'm sure some people have pieces like the Clutch of Fortification or the bonus armor ring off Twin Valk's. Trinkets are the easiest place to swap, but it's not hard to "stack" armor as an ICC tank.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    302
    My current qualm is the frost emblem chest. It has an amazing amount of stamina & armour, but no dodge or parry (I know the defence adds avoidance, as does the expertise indirectly, but still). I suppose I can compensate by wearing my Corpse Tongue Coin - Item - World of Warcraft (Which I quite liked using on festergut) if I feel I need the added avoidance sometime.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Columbus,OH
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by krc View Post
    Avoidance hasn't lost any value, going from 7-8% dodge is the same upgrade as going from 27-28% dodge.

    Technically this isn't true if you use a bit of logic. Think about Tank A going from 0% to 1% avoidance and then about Tank B going from 101.4% to 102.4%. Lets get hypothetical. If the boss does only avoidable hits, Tank A's healers aren't going to notice much of a difference in healing him. On the other hand, Tank B's healers are going to be bored because he won't take a single hit, so long as he doesn't turn around. Of course, the only boss I can think of that did a string of only avoidable hits was part of the Req of Souls(I think) encounter in BT, but that's besides the point.
    Chromazone, Scarlet Crusade - Back from Retirement
    Chromkin, Scarlet Crusade - Newly Retired Main.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    643
    True but from a warrior stand point its impossible to realisticly reach unhittable in a normal EH gear set.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,681
    Even without looking at the extreme ends, it's still true. The reason that avoidance has a DR curve is that adding a 1% avoidance has more value the more avoidance you have.

    Ie. 50%-> 51% does more for you than 0% -> 1%. The reason is the chance to be hit doesn't change proportionally (first case can be though of as an additional 2% miss while the second case is just 1%).

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Armor vs Avoidance is not usually a choice. You can't particularly gem for Armor (except through Agi), but you can for avoidance.

    If you're talking trinkets though, see Karlhungus's comments above.

    Also, for some light reading:
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...-survival.html
    Minus the entire new tier of items and content which are exclusively armor vs avoidance vs threat generation via expertise or hit

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    30
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Minus the entire new tier of items and content which are exclusively armor vs avoidance vs threat generation via expertise or hit
    This.

    You may not have seen the new recommended Best in Slot gearlist for Death Knight tanks, but essentially it incorporates all the offset pieces with bonus armor in lieu of traditional avoidance stats. We can finally choose to gear almost entirely for effective health, sacrificing more avoidance to get there.

    I honestly don't know if Blizzard realized what they were doing, but they basically ensured that none of the plate tanks will be using their T10 when they can get bonus armor pieces with vastly superior EH instead.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    580
    Quote Originally Posted by GBF View Post
    This.

    You may not have seen the new recommended Best in Slot gearlist for Death Knight tanks, but essentially it incorporates all the offset pieces with bonus armor in lieu of traditional avoidance stats. We can finally choose to gear almost entirely for effective health, sacrificing more avoidance to get there.

    I honestly don't know if Blizzard realized what they were doing, but they basically ensured that none of the plate tanks will be using their T10 when they can get bonus armor pieces with vastly superior EH instead.
    Quoted for truth. I've seen amazing gains in EH from every crafted and off-set badge piece I got. The tier10 pales in comparison for EH and the avoidance losses in the swap are not hurting me. The non-set gear basically makes us mini-bears without savage defense and plus some avoidance.

  14. #14
    ICC- Bears in plate, throwing shields.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    On the cloud.
    Posts
    2,279
    Quote Originally Posted by GBF View Post
    I honestly don't know if Blizzard realized what they were doing, but they basically ensured that none of the plate tanks will be using their T10 when they can get bonus armor pieces with vastly superior EH instead.
    I agree, but I disagree. Granted, most of the hard fights have been effective health-favoring-armor type fights, however, why would they give us the ~12k damage absorb, plus the new badge trinket with the 3k absorb if it wasn't meant to be used? I'm thinking fights, such as Sindragosa perhaps, might call for more stam-oriented than armor-oriented to help mitigate or absorb magic damage which armor does nothing for. Here we use stamina trinkets, the frost badge trinket, and the T10 4pc, and profit. I'm a big fan of the EH given by all this bonus armor (just dropped 17k on mats and tip for Pillars of Might last night), and will pick up my t10 shoulders and helm, AFTER the offset is complete, but I will finish the bonus off because I'm sure it will find a use later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    240
    Well, you know how the cycle goes. In the beginning, EH is king for progression. Once you get the place on farm, a more normal rounded set becomes practical.

    ...well, actually, once you get the place on farm, you get your Tier set more so that you look well dressed and get a fun new toy in the 4 set bonus instead of actual survival stats because you don't need that kind of min/max anymore.
    Stay strong. Stay smart. All heart.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    On the cloud.
    Posts
    2,279
    Quote Originally Posted by Halgreg View Post
    Well, you know how the cycle goes. In the beginning, EH is king for progression. Once you get the place on farm, a more normal rounded set becomes practical.

    ...well, actually, once you get the place on farm, you get your Tier set more so that you look well dressed and get a fun new toy in the 4 set bonus instead of actual survival stats because you don't need that kind of min/max anymore.
    EH is essentially a strategy for tanking content that you don't outgear, yes.

    On your second point, all my offset pieces look exactly the same as my set pieces. The 4pc bonus more than likely has a specific use, and by the time that use is realized, I should have the badges for that, after having farmed up the sexier offset pieces.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,681
    I think they're experimenting with making tanking more pro-active. They started by dropping the 30 minute cooldown on shieldwall. Giving other tanks more cooldowns. Not allowing us to chain pot (so they become mini-cooldowns).

    And of course having DKs rely on cooldowns initially.

    A fun set bonus that may give us a preview of how Cataclysm looks like? (once again they're trying to keep avoidance 'lower' in Cat, so it's going to look a lot like ICC I think).

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    580
    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    I think they're experimenting with making tanking more pro-active. They started by dropping the 30 minute cooldown on shieldwall. Giving other tanks more cooldowns. Not allowing us to chain pot (so they become mini-cooldowns).

    And of course having DKs rely on cooldowns initially.

    A fun set bonus that may give us a preview of how Cataclysm looks like? (once again they're trying to keep avoidance 'lower' in Cat, so it's going to look a lot like ICC I think).
    If they didn't learn from their mistake from dks then sure.

    I certainly hope they aren't trying to make every tank into a paper-bag with numerous tricks to keep themselves alive, and if they are bent on giving out more and more low-cooldown low-mitigation cds then they have some serious homework to do with the class that currently has them and under-performs the rest of the tanks in most settings.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreador View Post
    I'm thinking fights, such as Sindragosa perhaps, might call for more stam-oriented than armor-oriented to help mitigate or absorb magic damage which armor does nothing for.
    You might as well keep the armor offset pieces on and only switch in the stamina trinkets because the bonus armor pieces don't trade Stamina for Armor but Avoidance for Armor (except for the 251 bracers anyway).

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts