Tankadin gemming/enchanting

[Bashal]

There's also heals which need to be factored in.

I know we're talking about a worst-case scenario here, where there aren't heals incoming, but realistically, especially in a 25-man, it's horribly unlikely that you won't have hots rolling on you at the very least, even in a worst-case scenario. Your EH set may not have enough health to take 3 hits without heals...but what if some hots tick, and/or you get a last-second, somewhat gimpy heal that tops you off enough to survive a third?

That possibility is more likely to occur when you are focusing more on EH than avoidance.

[Irat]

Your not getting what Synapse is trying to say, check this post by Satorri out:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/53070-practical-survival.html

Basically the point is that EH does not go up in a straight line it steps up. Imagine a boss hit for 50k a swing after mitigation, there is no way you are going to survive two of those swings. AND there is no way you can stack enough EH to possibly survive two swings so EH has reached its usefulness cap after you can survive one. In that case you would be better off stacking Avoidance and praying to the RNG gods.

[Synapse]

Irat got what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

The 30k 12k 12k 7k example does not fall under "yeah, no boss ever does different damage per hit" means we already consider the maximum possible hit...

[Aggathon]

Irat got what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear before.

The 30k 12k 12k 7k example does not fall under "yeah, no boss ever does different damage per hit" means we already consider the maximum possible hit...

And what we're saying is you're wrong. You also completely misunderstood saia's analysis here.

Saying you only need so much HP per fight based on current fight mechanics is a complete fallacy. If you get hit harder than 1 heal from your healer, then EHP still matters. You assume that you're always getting hit from full to dead when in reality a lot of times it comes from either not being topped off or not recieving a full heal, healers basically falling behind. Gibs happen from full to dead yes, but here's a much more likely situation:

I have 60k hps
Festergut hits me for 25k (35k hps)
Golijov heals me for 20k (55k hps)
Festergut hits me for 25k (30k hps)
Festergut hits me for 25k (5k hps)

Lookie there, I'm alive.

I am also a very firm believer in the margin of error argument in that if you have more hit points, even if it is a slightly larger amount, it gives healers a bigger margin of error if they have to run or divine please or whatever.

Saia is completely right also about bosses hitting for various levels.

While more than 50k hit points might not help you survive a 3rd hit if you receive no heals for a boss who's max hit is 25k, it will help you survive a 3rd if you only get healed once.

This entire conversation just makes me nerd rage really really hard and I'm sick and tired of fighting it. At least I managed to covert Saia.

[Taio]

Basically the point is that EH does not go up in a straight line it steps up.

Only in the case where the boss is beating on you AND you get no heals AND pop no cooldowns AND avoid no hits AND see no variance in boss damage.

ONLY in that case.

[Synapse]

Only in the case where the boss is beating on you AND you get no heals AND pop no cooldowns AND avoid no hits AND see no variance in boss damage.

ONLY in that case.

And that's the premise of EH minmaxing. If you add in heals, you add in cooldowns, add in avoidance, and there is variance in boss damage, each of those items gets more and more reliable as the real time till you die will change.

[Taio]

And that's the premise of EH minmaxing.

Not really. It's one case where EHP is at its finest, but not the only situation where having high HP matters. That's the difference.

I agree with you, by the way. In the case where a boss is beating on you for 25k and you have 51k HP, adding another 20k hp makes no lick of difference. However, that is ONLY valid in that ONE circumstance. Even when you start to factor in heals and cooldowns, the fact doesn't change that avoidance is unreliable due to its random nature.

[Aggathon]

Not really. It's one case where EHP is at its finest, but not the only situation where having high HP matters. That's the difference.

I agree with you, by the way. In the case where a boss is beating on you for 25k and you have 51k HP, adding another 20k hp makes no lick of difference. However, that is ONLY valid in that ONE circumstance. Even when you start to factor in heals and cooldowns, the fact doesn't change that avoidance is unreliable due to its random nature.

I think you're my new favorite person.

[Tyoko]

It's been an education watching all you guys get your nerd on, and I think I've gained quite a bit more insight into tankadin mechanics. I've decided to revert to stam stacking and have gone with the 0/53/18 build.

I'm seeing some noticeabe returns, but I'm still struggling with the use of SoComm over SoC...maybe it's just that I wasn't properly monitoring my TPS before, but I haven't seen any real change, overall. The one place where it DID give me stellar results however was in HoR. I found it much easier to get and keep aggro of those mobs within range, now I just need to get better at grabbing multiple ranged mobs. :P

[Taio]

I've personally never found SoC to be worth the talent point over SoV. I understand how it would be good on trash... but I don't have problems with trash threat even using SoV. I don't know if you change your 969 rotation order at all depending on fight, but I usually go (precombat HS) Consecration, Hammer, Judge, (switch target) Shield, refresh HS, Hammer, refresh Consecration (etc etc) and I don't tend to have any problems.

There is one habit that I've gotten into that you may or may not find useful. I use x-perl unitframes and the default party frames have a little mini-bar for what each party member is targeting. This is very nice because at a glance I can see which DPS are targeting the same mob as me, and change if I need to (usually right at the shield+judge part of my rotation for some nice snap threat). Ideally speaking, DPS should be assisting the tank, but it's faster to just assist the DPS if they aren't assisting you.

[Martie]

Challenge accepted.
I'm a prot warrior with 61k HP in my avoidance gear, 65k in my EHP gear. 2.5k BV in both sets. Rotface hits for 30k.

Rotface hits me for 30k. I panic and hit Shield Wall. (unglyphed)
Rotface hits for 12k.
Another 12k. Panicking more, I pop Shield Block.
I take a hit for 7k. Avoidance set dies. EHP set lives.

You are ignoring way too many things. The EHP set warrior would be taking less damage due to having more armor, for one. The diminished chance of the scenario for avoidance gear you also ignore. Then there's the fact that if you take four melee attacks without healing, you are pretty much screwed anyway (mostly because there's something really wrong with the healers.) I haven't yet seen tanks with 60k health either, so that's a weird thing too.

Now, don't get me wrong, I value EH quite highly in my gearing, but I think you shouldn't use bogus arguments, nonexistant scenarios or weird comparisons to promote it, there more then enough valid arguments for it to convince anyone that going for EH is good.

[Taio]

You are right, the "nightmare scenario" doesn't typically happen, but it's not brought up to be seen as an actual event, it's to illustrate an idea and the numbers themselves don't actually matter. What matters is the relationship between the numbers (i.e. that the boss can kill you in two hits assuming no heals, and there's a big gap between surviving two hits and three hits). I was taking the usual nightmare scenario and adding in a very common occurrence (tank cooldowns) to show that there is benefit to more HP between the two-hit and three-hit areas.

You actually posted the single word that best explains why EHP is better than avoidance:

chance

[Aggathon]

You are right, the "nightmare scenario" doesn't typically happen, but it's not brought up to be seen as an actual event, it's to illustrate an idea and the numbers themselves don't actually matter. What matters is the relationship between the numbers (i.e. that the boss can kill you in two hits assuming no heals, and there's a big gap between surviving two hits and three hits). I was taking the usual nightmare scenario and adding in a very common occurrence (tank cooldowns) to show that there is benefit to more HP between the two-hit and three-hit areas.

You actually posted the single word that best explains why EHP is better than avoidance:

I'm serious, you really are my new favorite person.