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Thread: ICC 20% dodge debuff question

  1. #1
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    ICC 20% dodge debuff question

    I have been trying to find information for a while now about this debuff and tanking. My Tank is Natal from Andorhal (US) and over the past few weeks I have been using my normal set of gear, switching the gear when I got to Saurfang putting on all the gear I could find with dodge (and i bought a second set of T9 stacking mostly +dodge gems).

    I finally got some drops and I am debating what to socket. I bought the 251 badge belt and I got the 251 chest piece Lady Deathwhisper.

    If I were to ever socket an avoidance stat, i normally socket parry, but im wondering if I should focus more on dodge, or use my old gear and socket more dodge in them for certain fights? Or if dodge is just a lost cause in ICC and concentrate on other forms of avoidance (block/parry).

    If anybody knows a good website/post/ or feels like responding please do, thank you very much!

  2. #2
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    From my experience in the new bosses, you'll want to go the EH route, and yes dodge is still better than parry.

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  3. #3
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    The best answer I've seen is that the ICC debuff should not in any way change how you gear. If you gear for EH, you're still gearing for EH. If you (for whatever reason) are gearing for avoidance, every point of dodge is just as critical as it was prior to the debuff.

    Statistically for most if not all fights EH is the better bet. But I'm just saying don't change anything only because of CotT.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
    If you (for whatever reason) are gearing for avoidance, every point of dodge is just as critical as it was prior to the debuff.
    I'm completely boggled as to where this idea comes from. A model simple enough to rapidly design clearly indicates that avoidance becomes significantly less powerful. A model complicated enough to have any real meaning is largely impossible to calculate.

    In the simplest case, where all damage is avoidable, the effect of avoidance is (gain/(1-current_avoidance)). At 50% raidbuffed avoidance, it reduces the values of dodge and parry rating by about 30%.

    On the other hand, we've yet to come across a melee strike which is actually unavoidable, while these were rife in Ulduar and Trial. Try modelling that meaningfully.

    This doesn't invalidate the point that Chill is not a reason to gear differently, but if I'm missing something as to the reason everyone claims that Chill has no effect on the value of avoidance, would anyone mind pointing me to where-ever I can be corrected on the subject?

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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    I'm completely boggled as to where this idea comes from. A model simple enough to rapidly design clearly indicates that avoidance becomes significantly less powerful. A model complicated enough to have any real meaning is largely impossible to calculate.

    In the simplest case, where all damage is avoidable, the effect of avoidance is (gain/(1-current_avoidance)). At 50% raidbuffed avoidance, it reduces the values of dodge and parry rating by about 30%.

    On the other hand, we've yet to come across a melee strike which is actually unavoidable, while these were rife in Ulduar and Trial. Try modelling that meaningfully.

    This doesn't invalidate the point that Chill is not a reason to gear differently, but if I'm missing something as to the reason everyone claims that Chill has no effect on the value of avoidance, would anyone mind pointing me to where-ever I can be corrected on the subject?
    Avoidance overall is indeed less valuable due to how it behaves, but that is only when comparing total avoidance with the same specific hit at different levels of total avoidance. What you gain from 100 dodge rating before or after the Chill debuff will not change. It was "nerfed" specifically to make way for more avoidable damage that wouldn't be worth 70% of a tank's HP.
    On that sense avoidance was made much more useful than it ever was in the Coliseum, where any damage we care about is unavoidable.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    I'm completely boggled as to where this idea comes from. A model simple enough to rapidly design clearly indicates that avoidance becomes significantly less powerful. A model complicated enough to have any real meaning is largely impossible to calculate.

    In the simplest case, where all damage is avoidable, the effect of avoidance is (gain/(1-current_avoidance)). At 50% raidbuffed avoidance, it reduces the values of dodge and parry rating by about 30%.

    On the other hand, we've yet to come across a melee strike which is actually unavoidable, while these were rife in Ulduar and Trial. Try modelling that meaningfully.

    This doesn't invalidate the point that Chill is not a reason to gear differently, but if I'm missing something as to the reason everyone claims that Chill has no effect on the value of avoidance, would anyone mind pointing me to where-ever I can be corrected on the subject?
    What I'm trying to say is that CotT does not make avoidance irrelevant. Some tanks look at the -20% dodge Debuff and go "well, since most of my dodge is gone, why don't I just ignore that and stack health, and get rid of all my dodge? There's no point in having any dodge anymore."

    That's just stupid, an attack dodged is still an attack your healers never had to heal you for. Yes EH is more effective, but that doesn't mean you should drop any of your remaining avoidance! I talked to a tank the other day that said he wouldn't use Glpyh of indomitability's on-use anymore in Icecrown because dodge doesn't work in that instance anymore! That's the kind of thing I was trying to combat.

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    EH>Dodge>Parry. I have no problem here and I just stack EH.
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You know you just called yourself an asshat, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eisen View Post
    Yes EH is more effective, but that doesn't mean you should drop any of your remaining avoidance!
    Indeed. The solution to losing 20% of your dodge is not to decrease it further.

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    To, hopefully, succinctly answer the question (though if you read all the posts here, you should have a rough idea).

    You should gear just as you would have before.

    More thoroughly explained:

    If, for a particular fight, you want avoidance, gear as you would have before for an avoidance fight. The net result will be more avoidance, which is what you want. The fact that your total avoidance in ICC will be lower than anywhere else should have no bearing on that decision.

    Edit:
    The only distinction to be made, and probably one of the reasons for the debuff, is that it would be much more difficult to reach unhittable now than it is outside of ICC. For that reason, trying to make an unhittable set (I don't know why you would try for any of the fights as they are now) would probably not be suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashal View Post
    Indeed. The solution to losing 20% of your dodge is not to decrease it further.
    BY NO MEANS LOSE YOU AVOIDANCE! lol. That being said. If you have dodge/parry gems stacking into everyslot then your EH is to low. The debuff effects all tanks across the board. Tankadins and warriors are not mitigating this debuff because they have a board, they have always had a board. It effects all of us. To be honest, we are tanking thru ICC just fine with myself and a druid tanking.
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You know you just called yourself an asshat, right?

  11. #11
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    I wasn't advocating a different gearing strategy, although I can appreciate why you'd take that interpretation. I was mostly interested in the concept that CotT would not affect avoidance. You meant the rather un-intuitive concept that x Dodge rating was still Y percentage points of avoidance. Strictly true, but largely unhelpful, since all one cares about is your total statistical damage reduction from Avoidance.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by proudmoore View Post
    I wasn't advocating a different gearing strategy, although I can appreciate why you'd take that interpretation. I was mostly interested in the concept that CotT would not affect avoidance. You meant the rather un-intuitive concept that x Dodge rating was still Y percentage points of avoidance. Strictly true, but largely unhelpful, since all one cares about is your total statistical damage reduction from Avoidance.
    Not wholly true. The most important value of avoidance, for me, is its ability to reduce the string of incoming hits that one takes. So, instead of five hits in a row, maybe I take 3 of them, with one missed after the first and the other missed after the second. Even if the big picture shows a flat damage reduction, my healer notice whether or not I'm able to give them enough time to heal me or not during any given moment in a fight.

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    I'm not saying that avoidance is a bad thing and that it shouldn't be gemmed for depending on a player's particular play style. I am merely stating that in my opinion 50k+ health/30% dodge is greater than 40k+health/35% dodge. I look at it from a healing stand point. My main for 3 years has been a disc priest. The extra health does give the healer a bit more "grace" room if the worst happens. (I.E. a healer dies, has to be Brez'd and mana up)
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You know you just called yourself an asshat, right?

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    I dont think I said anywhere in my post that you should gem for dodge or that it was more valuable than EH in any sense, so I hope that's not what you derived from my post.

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    *repeatedly bashes head against desk*

    Couldn't we have just left it alone after Kazey's post? I mean this avoidance/EH debate has gone on for half a decade now, and coincidentally, neither argument has changed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

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    I don't get why people made this into one of those either. It should be a bannable offense :-/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lulia View Post
    I don't get why people made this into one of those either. It should be a bannable offense :-/
    I'll disagree there, because the mechanics of the game could always change. It's just that it's fairly easy to tell how to gear if you look at it backwards. Healers: they intuitively realize this is new content, as such should expect tanks to take massive damage, this equates to "spammed heals". If the tank focuses on avoidance, the heals aren't stopping, this increases overhealing and reduces the effective use of lolmana. The second part is what's being debated above, and that's using your effective health as a timeline for staying alive. Does it provide a buffer for a healer to be brezzed and innervated? DPSed out of bone spike? That's what the effective health argument is all about and that's why it continuously wins out in popularity. The small percentage of people who thing it's only about having a superhigh HP pool for you to show off in Dalaran are missing something and are the minority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  18. #18
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    I agree Dread. EH yes, overkill EH no...I won't argue any more. PLease don't sic Kaz on me
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You know you just called yourself an asshat, right?

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    Thread closed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

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