I Do Like Ghostcrawler

[Hammerfists]

I recommend just sit back and relax and wait till Cataclysm before you go stressing about something that isnt live yet. You picked up a toon that is almost a year old compared to others that have been around for 5 years and you expect it to be as polished as them. I can point to vanilla Pallies and I hope that will cheer you up. Year one for any class is a touch and go, atleast you can tank maybe not the best choice but still capable. Cataclysm will see the biggest change for DKs than any other class they just dont want to say anything because they arent as simple as block change and get a torrent of posts saying "now now now" or if im correct all the die hard DKs will flame blizzard for buckling and giving them a true tank spec.

[Muffin Man]

Taking this as the rough draft for pallies (got this from MMO which took it from a slide presentation by Blizz) I dont see how they can make mastery without making a tanking tree for DKs. Believe me Ive been stressing this idea as well since my guild currenty has no DKs and Im the second Pallie tank in my 25s. Im planning on going DK in xpac and i know that blizz has a lot in store for DKs.

Actually my take is masteries will make other tanks *more* like DKs.

I believe another example was an arms warrior using 'tank mastery' to sword and board it when a real tank couldn't be found. So it seems like talent trees will be style and masteries will be role oriented? I could be reading this wrong of course, but that sounds exciting to me.

I also hope that the DK rollercoaster is over. I just started levelling up my DK and everything I've been learning playing *against* them is wrong.

For example, look at old videos when Desecration was a dps buff, it's really messing with how I evaluate talents and abilities.

[Enok]

To comment on ur original post

i dont like GC, he is clueless bout warriors...

[Bladesong]

I think GC does a great job of answering questions given the constraints he works under. The game is complex with a multitude of inter-dependencies. Each legitimate balance issue that crops up can be fixed in many different ways, some of which have far-reaching consequences and all of which need to be tested before making a decision about which is best. It's pretty unrealistic to expect that we're going to get detailed information at every point in the process - they will leave their options open by giving us only what we need to know: they recognize there is a problem, how serious they think the problem is and one or two possible solutions they are considering.

When they don't think there's a problem, they are pretty good about giving reasons why they don't think it's a problem.

So, Theotherone, count me as agreeing with you. I've been playing since late in Vanilla and I look forward to playing through many more expansions. It's still the best damn video game in the history of the planet

[Hammerfists]

Im not sure what you are saying Muffin Man but from what i have seen Masteries are tied to talent trees. They are there to clear the clutter from gear. Example Warriors need armor pen Pallies dont so they would tie armor pen with the warrior talent/s that need it (dont play one plz dont shoot me). Tanks will get there Mastery like defense but more refined for what they do. You either make a sloppy tree where mastery partially helps tanking and partially helps dps. Yes we all are becoming more like DKs without the take % less damage and for that matter 5% dodge and parry will be gone.

Bottem line Mastery/Reforging is there way of getting rid of the drop no one wants. As well as designing multiple loot sets for each armor class and making the hunter piece drop off first boss but the enhance shaman needs to wait to kill the last boss, shaman qq on forums to say hey GC way to kick us in our balls for the bracer drop. Not to mention the delay in Raid release to create all those items.

For Arms warrior to get "tank" mastery he will have to devote points in the prot tree nothing has been said how many points you need to activate a mastery and how it scales with point devotion to each tree but thats the basic model. Looking at the Pallies Prot mastery expect Warrior prot to be the same.

spoiler alert heres rogue:
Rogue

• Assassination - +% Melee Damage, +% Melee Crit, +% Poison Damage
• Combat - +% Melee Damage, +% Hit Chance, +% Armor Penetration
• Subtlety - +% Melee Damage, +% Melee Haste, +% Energy Regeneration

[Proletaria]

I recommend just sit back and relax and wait till Cataclysm before you go stressing about something that isnt live yet. You picked up a toon that is almost a year old compared to others that have been around for 5 years and you expect it to be as polished as them. I can point to vanilla Pallies and I hope that will cheer you up. Year one for any class is a touch and go, atleast you can tank maybe not the best choice but still capable. Cataclysm will see the biggest change for DKs than any other class they just dont want to say anything because they arent as simple as block change and get a torrent of posts saying "now now now" or if im correct all the die hard DKs will flame blizzard for buckling and giving them a true tank spec.

I agree, nobody can expect the fine-tuning to be done in a quarter of the time (or less), but comparing dk's to OOC rez'ing 5-min buff-bot paladins of vanilla is a bit misleading. Paladins in vanilla were (like almost all hybrids) forced into healing by design, more or less.

Anyhow, to avoid furthing the discourse on dk's I have to say, any class that is currently experiencing a massive surge in comparative effectiveness is going to be more than happy to say that GC is doing fine and nobody should sweat the issues he's glossing over or missing entirely. More issues than dk tanking have been out of balance, and under-discussed by GC in the time since wrath left it's infancy. I don't propose the greatest problem with GC's posts are that he's been really slow to catch up on dk tanks, but that issue is one of importance to raiding in general. There are other areas where balance is that FAR out of wack and i think those issues should get more meaningful feedback aswell. I personally don't follow other issues enough to discuss them at this kind of length, but he should know what they are. It is his job to know what they are.

I know that inter-dependancy is par for the course, and he probably has a hundred aspects of the game in mind when changing two talents, but being tight-lipped on core issues and resorting to fending off snarky trolls with snarky blue posts isn't very beneficial to the community. I don't believe he is a dunce. He has the capacity to say "well ideally we want this to happen," with no more negative feedback than he already gets. He just needs to find the courage to write a meaningful paragraph about where he sees his own development team going with things in the near future on more issues.

[Hammerfists]

You missed my point Proletaria. Paladins werent created for just healing since *donk* they had a prot and and ret tree problem was balancing around their horde counterpart the Shaman which oddly enough had elements of tanking (who here remebers the block talent for shammies). Same dilemma for DKs balance around dps/tank/pvp in all three trees. But its a lot more balanced and polished. All things being equal by design Pallies and for that matter Druids weren't suppose to match a Warrior's prowess at tanking but the gap was a huge one none the less.

What you want to see from GC is highly unlikey due to him being quoted like the gospel. "GC you said i was going to get a buff..." or "GC tells me theres a problem with your class so we will bench you or we wont accept your application to the guild at this time...". What his major job is to float ideas and test the reaction of ideas to the community other than that he is just a poster in an otherwise high position in the Blizzard corporate ladder. They will never give "State of the Union" addresses as to what patch 4.X will entail because last time that crashed and burned with a torrent of QQ posts about the quotes i posted earlier.

[Muffin Man]

Im not sure what you are saying Muffin Man but from what i have seen Masteries are tied to talent trees.

You know what, I was confusing Path of the Titans with masteries (Path of the Titans, Rankwatch, Blue posts).

The example path is pretty wild. But that's where I got the idea that you could 'enhance' your role independent of talent trees.

Looking through old Cataclysm comments, I'm also confusing them saying no more defense on gear and arms warriors can tank heroics. I'm pretty sure there's going to be something that grants crit immunity (unless they want to take us back to Vanilla and all that). But whatever that is, they seem to imply that all tank capable classes can access it regardless of spec (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/2204...cataclysm.html).

[hola_adios]

To be honest, people seem to forget what other MMOs are like. Regarding communication between designers and users. We, as a community, are extremely lucky by having someone like GC, who:

- Creates debate and shares knowledge with players
- Puts a fenomenal ammount of time into explaining changes to the community
- And is funny (well, if you like H2SO4 humour)

Do I sometimes get annoyed with some of his comments? Well, yes, but not very often

[Bladesong]

but being tight-lipped on core issues and resorting to fending off snarky trolls with snarky blue posts isn't very beneficial to the community.

I find his answers to be reasonable and not snarky. And if we think he should share more of the process with us, then we need to show we are capable of handling that information. Honestly, how many tank issues have been debated here where people swear up and down that a proposed change or perceived inequity will cause them to get benched and then after the change is implemented or the inequity is ignored... nothing changes and no one is benched. We keep crying wolf and then ask to have a bigger say in the process.

Maybe I'm just being overly sympathetic - I wouldn't touch the WoW forums with a ten foot pole and he has to wade through that mess every day.

[Bovinity]

It's something they've been aware of since druids were given savage block months ago. The fact he assumes "mums the word," on anything but how they're going to modify block in cata is silly. We've had two full content patches where a lack of block was a serious hindrance to our capability to perform in heroics, to say nothing of raid content which we can debate to your heart's content elsewhere.

Savage Defense doesn't compare to block, either, so don't worry...bears feel your pain, too. Neither of us can just slap a shield on and tank infinity-minus-one little mobs and tank near-zero damage. =/

[Theotherone]

I think his answers are pretty good. I fully understand why he would not debate/answer the intense theorycrafters. There's a good chance that there are variables in the game that the theorycrafters have no clue about and of which Blizz wants them to have no clue about i.e. trade secret type information; and, why bother, so that Blizz could make a change, then get sued from someone claiming "hey that formula was my information and as such I own the intellectual property rights to it."

GC has to walk a fine line between addressing the community to keep a finger on its pulse and to be careful what he says and protect his company - although he comes across as speaking with the community directly, I can guarantee there's a lawyer looking over or having approved every Blizz employee post before it gets on the forums.

[Proletaria]

To be honest, people seem to forget what other MMOs are like. Regarding communication between designers and users. We, as a community, are extremely lucky by having someone like GC, who:

- Creates debate and shares knowledge with players
- Puts a fenomenal ammount of time into explaining changes to the community
- And is funny (well, if you like H2SO4 humour)

Do I sometimes get annoyed with some of his comments? Well, yes, but not very often

Find me a few posts that fit this description. I'm using the blue tracker on mmo and I've mostly found "im going to ignore the OP, but i think.. yatta yatta talking in circles."

[Hammerfists]

@Muffin Man: yeah all plate classes will get a survival of the fittest talent probably in the prot tree but not too deep for other spec to pick it up.

@Proletaria: Not sure how you are coming up with this he is addressing priest issues in priest topics not talking about warriors in them unless it is relevant to the priest. Reading OP and blue doesnt give you the full picture since there are a lot more posts in between.

[hola_adios]

Find me a few posts that fit this description. I'm using the blue tracker on mmo and I've mostly found "im going to ignore the OP, but i think.. yatta yatta talking in circles."

Ermm, no, not really going to do that. Search harder.

I still remember the "31 bosses in ICC" comment, that was just great And just another sign of how the community (as an entity) can missinterpretate comments from blues so easily.

[Mert]

I agree that it can be frustrating to not hear a straight answer from him but, ultimately, it's the community's fault that you don't get them. All too often GC will say something in the abstract or simply bounce around an idea and before long there's endless QQ saying he "promised" then that specific change or whatever.

If people could be a bit more reasonable when reacting to his suggestions then he could probably afford to be a bit more specific without having to worry about the reprocussions. How many more threads do you think he would have time to respond to if he didn't have to triple proof every post and spend ages adding caveats to everything?

[Proletaria]

I agree that it can be frustrating to not hear a straight answer from him but, ultimately, it's the community's fault that you don't get them. All too often GC will say something in the abstract or simply bounce around an idea and before long there's endless QQ saying he "promised" then that specific change or whatever.

If people could be a bit more reasonable when reacting to his suggestions then he could probably afford to be a bit more specific without having to worry about the reprocussions. How many more threads do you think he would have time to respond to if he didn't have to triple proof every post and spend ages adding caveats to everything?

But if he isn't afraid to just say "im going to ignore X" as an initial caveat, why not just be frank about what he (and his team) are considering/working on instead of making bland statements? It seems like he fears people blowing a mis-interpretation of his posts out of porportion, but at the same time they'll do the same to a lack of posts. Why not just let the reasonable readers make of it what they will and ignore/lock the ignorant flame threads?

[Hammerfists]

Its not just his forums he needs to think about its the hundreds other ones that he has no control of not to mention controlling the WoW forums is damn near impossible. MMO or for that matter someone on this forum will copy past what he said and then bring it here for discussion. Does anyone really read the WoW forums for the blues, no we all get it from somewhere else could be mmo could be wowblues. Most people who end up crying wolf about the sky is falling didnt even read the thread on WoWforums.

Following the response to our first Developer Chat on Twitter, we will be holding the next one on Friday, January 15, at 5:00 p.m. PST with World of Warcraft’s senior game producer and lead systems designer. This chat session will focus on the recently released Fall of the Lich King content.

Questions will be taken live through Twitter, so be sure to sign up for a Twitter account at https://twitter.com/signup and follow account @Warcraft in order to participate!

To submit a question for the Developer Chat, please tweet using the #BlizzChat hashtag between 5:00pm and 6:00pm PST on January 15. Due to the limitations of providing complete answers within Twitter, all answers will be posted on the forums in a dedicated thread.

Link to the first Developer Chat: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...77768276&sid=1

Maybe this twitter thing is what you are looking for. If anyone knows anything about about WoW's twitter post your thoughts ill be happy to hear them.

[Proletaria]

Dev twitter 1/14/10: Just got back from Jack N the Box with our fewdz.