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Thread: By role By Boss EH vs Avoidance

  1. #81
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    Technically speaking, Resistance provides both MEH and Magical Avoidance--since there is a minimum resistance amount combined with variable additional values.

    I do generally agree that Armor is the big winner (especially for the classes that haven't had access to it much so far,) primarily because it functionally has the advantages of both EH and Avoidance.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    And armor isn't particularly easy to gear for for the most part. You certainly can't gem for either, can you?
    You can wear high item level drops that offer bonus Armor in nearly every slot on your toon. (and a lot of these are purchasable with emblems) In the Naxx-only days your statement would have made sense, but not anymore. As Edge says, it's extremely easy to gear for armor now especially since Blizzard hasn't ruined any of the bonus Armor pieces with Block stats.

  3. #83
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    There will also be the possibility of having two 'organs':
    Unidentifiable Organ - Item - World of Warcraft
    Unidentifiable Organ - Item - World of Warcraft

    I'm not sure how smart it would be to use both, or even whether the buff would stack from both, but it shows you have the ability to swing in ~4k armour from 2 slots.

  4. #84
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    These EH vs. Avoidance debates seem to crop up all the time, despite the fact that the problem has been "solved" for a long time. And to be fair, this isn't something I came up with. It's just a re-hashing of the same sort of rule I remember reading here when I started learning to tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theck
    Progression gearing strategy is to stack EH to meet or exceed the fight's minimum threshold, and after that stack avoidance to reduce incoming damage, as long as there aren't mechanics of the fight that artificially weaken avoidance (Impale, Bleeds, Magic damage, or other unavoidable damage sources).

    That means that if you're in any danger of dying during the fight due to a string of un-avoided attacks, you should not be stacking avoidance yet. Going into the fight with 95% avoidance is meaningless if the boss can two-shot you.
    I'll even modify that so much as to say that after you reach the EH threshold for the fight, you can gear however you want. You don't have to stack avoidance past that point, you could continue stacking EH for the reasons others gave or stack DPS/Threat stats to shorten the fight length.

    This is as true now as it was in BC. EH is a "survive the max spike" stat, while avoidance is a "reduce incoming DTPS" stat. You don't stack avoidance to survive the max burst, you stack it to reduce the overall damage taken to help conserve healer mana and attention.

    In the previous tier of content, most of the tank-death scenarios involved a considerable chunk of unavoidable damage, which made avoidance stacking less effective - it still didn't help you survive the max spike, but it also lost effectiveness at reducing DTPS. As such, most tanks chose to gem for more EH to give their healers an extra buffer zone and protect them from stray DoT ticks (Burning Bile ticks or Snobold damage during a damage spike).

    Someone brought up Brutallus as an example of a fight where avoidance was "better" than EH. They're wrong. It still follows the rule I gave above. In BC, it was impossible to stack enough EH to survive 4 consecutive hits due to gearing limitations. Since the tank-death scenario was 4 consecutive hits, there was no other option than to gear for 2 or 3 consecutive hits and stack enough avoidance to maximize the probability that you avoid at least one of those 4 hits. It wasn't pretty, since 4-spikes still happened and would cause a wipe, but it was as good as we could do.

    It would have been better to stack enough EH to survive 4 consecutive hits, if it were possible. But it wasn't. So instead, we followed the rule - stack EH to the fight's highest reach-able threshold (which in this case was 3 hits), stack avoidance afterwards.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    People don't try "the avoidance approach" on threatening bosses because folks in those positions generally know better. You just can't make a case for *reliable* avoidance strategies on bosses that threaten tanks.
    The fallacy here is assuming that EH is a reliable strategy.

    The amount of health you may be lacking at any given time is a variable that in many scenarios has an upper bound that is beyond the expected gear level.

    There are also many cases where EH stacking is reliable, but the tank damage is so minimal that it is unnecessary (e.g., Deathbringer Saurfang).

    About Brutallus:

    TBC content.
    Doesn't matter. The point was that Brutallus had too high EH requirements, so many raids considered avoidance to be the lesser evil.

    Of course you used cooldowns. That's what they're there for. But you didn't walk in there with sub-50k hp and all dodge gems and say, "Hey, I can barkskin through!"
    You're misunderstanding me: Planned cooldown usage dramatically reduces the EH requirements of a fight, making EH gearing less necessary. As a simplified example, a boss that hits for 2X damage for a short time at two minute intervals, and for X damage elsewhere, has only the EH requirements as though he were hitting for X damage constantly, because you can Shield Wall/Divine Protection/etc. through the 2X phase. Gormok is a bit more complicated, but the basic thing about him was that Impale Hit + Impale Tick + regular melee hit at the same time were not survivable at fully stacked Rising Anger, so you used cooldowns to dramatically lower the EH requirements.

    About Festergut:

    So what would avoidance do there? Let you have even less EH and pray that you ALWAYS dodge 50% of attacks AND that they're spaced out on a perfect hit, miss, hit, miss, hit, miss pattern? Or you could eliminate more of the randomness and make sure you can take more of those hits.

    And for reference, 60k isn't right at the border of what you can get. I'm something like 60,400hp fully buffed and I'm not even all that geared. (1 264 piece, 1 251, rest 245, one 232, even a 200!) Granted I'm a bear. But hey, we're great!
    Precisely, you ARE a bear. A stamina stacking warrior or paladin (and presumably a deathknight, too) with average item level gear of 245 will have somewhere north of 50k health, while the EH requirements to take two back-to-back hits plus Gastric Bloat are well over 60k at two inhales (I've seen 26k hits with Ancestral Fortitude and Demoralizing Shout up at two inhales).

    So, it all depends on whether you can fully heal up a tank between hits. Let's assume you can. All of a sudden, the EH requirements drop dramatically. You don't even need 40k health to survive Festergut under that assumption, which is pretty trivial to come by. Much better to stack avoidance at that point if you can guarantee that much healing!

    In practice, though, you won't always be able to heal a tank up to full in between hits. How much healing does the tank get? It's basically random, and it takes just a minuscule amount of lag and some bad luck for there to be no healing at all between two consecutive attacks (remember that each stack of Inhaled Blight is also a 30% attack speed buff).

    So, what does avoidance for us here? The thing is, there is no such thing as a 100% reliable strategy to avoid tank death on Festergut. What you do is to reduce the likelihood of tank death to a minuscule amount. What can you do to achieve that?

    Both avoidance and EH play into that. Neither of them is 100% reliable, but combined with the fact that you need a moment of burst damage combined with just insufficient healing in order for a tank to die, which doesn't exactly happen all the time (not all hits are for maximum damage, Gastric Bloat isn't cast between ANY two melee attacks). Both EH and avoidance contribute to lowering that risk, without excluding it completely. EH decreases the amount of healing needed to survive worst case burst scenarios; avoidance decreases the likelihood of the worst case burst scenario happening.

    Neither, however, is a guarantee, but, as they say, only death and taxes are certain.

    And you always have SOME avoidance, as you put it. You never have NO avoidance. Completely unbuffed with chill up I'm still at 27.32% dodge. So that's a pointless statement to make. The argument is really about a reasonably geared tank trading potentially several thousand HP for a few percent avoidance and whether or not that is beneficial.
    Precisely. Admittedly, druids have particularly poor avoidance/health tradeoffs, but the same is not true for warrior and paladin tanks, especially when you're looking at unfavorable tradeoffs (such as sacrificing an avoidance socket bonus for more stamina), but the vast majority of WoW tanks aren't druids.

    However, naively assuming in general that stamina > avoidance, regardless of the actual tradeoff, is an argument that cannot be supported.

    I'd be in the vicinity of 47,000 fully raid buffed. I'd probably get laughed out of raids. =(
    Our tanks don't have much more health than that (our stamina-stacking warrior is at, I think, some 52k health raid-buffed). Tanks surviving two inhales on Festergut is generally not our problem.

  6. #86
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    We've been talking "get to minimum EH and then avoidance" for what, four, almost five years now? =)

    Quote Originally Posted by theckhd View Post
    I'll even modify that so much as to say that after you reach the EH threshold for the fight, you can gear however you want. You don't have to stack avoidance past that point, you could continue stacking EH for the reasons others gave or stack DPS/Threat stats to shorten the fight length.
    Now, Theck's words here should be tempered somewhat with the disclaimer of "as long as healer mana isn't an issue", but even if mana was an issue you could equally solve that problem with extra healers and keep the above point valid. Realistically, any encounter that was so finely balanced on the edge of EH and avoidance would get nerfed pretty quickly when it went live.

    Anyway, to take away more from Theck's words in a slightly different direction, we look to those people who still cling to the pearl of wisdom that is "when a boss is on farm, stack avoidance!" That's never made sense in past, still doesn't now. Look, even if the fight was super duper hard when you first encountered it in your big bad EH suit, by the time you have it on farm status, almost everyone's gear has been upgraded to some degree. Another way to describe "farm status" is "we overgear this". Don't be ridiculous, put on your threat and dps extras. A lot of people will read this and be all well duh, but a significant number of readers still don't believe it. If they kept your ass alive on that marginal first kill, they certainly can now keep your upgraded ass alive with their upgraded mana/heals for the shortened fight duration thanks to your upgraded dps.

    Simply, EH is advertised as a means to tackle content you're undergeared for, but there is never really any reason to deliberately overgear survivability to any huge degree anyway.

    We've been arguing about avoidance for as long as EH has been around, and certainly long before that. There have always been a lot of people who really want avoidance to be a relevant strategy, and certainly always will be. When it comes down to it, as has been mentioned in this discussion and others like it, avoidance has only been a serious consideration when the EH minimum is trivial, the EH minimum is unattainable, or a gimmick (e.g. unhittable set to single tank Bloodboil).

    Unless I miss my mark, Cataclysm is going to bring in an era of extremely low avoidance values both from the demise of defense and simply itemising avoidance at a much lower rate. This will only probably stir the debate even more with people wondering if they should go all out to maxmimise avoidance.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    So, what does avoidance for us here? The thing is, there is no such thing as a 100% reliable strategy to avoid tank death on Festergut. What you do is to reduce the likelihood of tank death to a minuscule amount. What can you do to achieve that?
    .
    Off topic - But yea there is. Good use of cooldowns plus ample stacking of ironshields and armor gear. Festergut's average hit was somewhere in the 16-17K range, with a maximum of 26,000 I think this week. Easily within the EH ranges for 100% survivability, and the numbers should be similar to any other tank.
    Also there is no reason a tank should be in 245 gear anymore. 251/264 mixed drops, and everyone that is on Festergut in 25 mans should have the badges for at least 2 armor piece badge gears. Festergut is nowhere near the difficulty of Brutallus, Patchwerk, Shahraz, etc., other tank killers in their hayday.

  8. #88
    Roana and I have had similar discussions before. I guess I'm just a student of the school of reliability...assuming the strategy is sound and everyone is doing their job, there are 100% reliable ways to tank things like Festergut.

    Someone once said this to me when I was asking what made a good tank: "What makes a good tank is reliability." When I'm tanking I do every little thing in my power to make sure that I survive. Not might survive, not probable to survive...will survive.

    On a fight like Festergut that means that I've got my health where I want it, I have the right consumables ready, I have my cooldowns planned out, I spoke with healers beforehand about external cooldowns, I'm communicating in ventrilo when the inhale stacks are getting to a threatening range and the situation on my cooldowns...in short, chance isn't something I'm fond of.

  9. #89
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    How am I wrong? Because avoidance helps healers save mana (something you can't run out of) on fights that are absolutely trivial and puggable?
    Because there is only one encounter in the game where avoidance is effective, and every other encounter is almost guaranteed to be easier with an EH tank?
    Please.
    You're wrong because you're saying it's always better - and it isn't. There's at least one encounter per tier where this gearing strategy is suboptimal.

    You're wrong because you're using EH as 'stamina, armor, and resistance' - which it never has been.

    As to gearing for armor - in icecrown, you sort of can. If you get only those craftable items and a couple other drops, yes, you can gear for armor. However, you're giving up for all that armor a 10% cooldown every minute (basically), which is again suboptimal for some fights. Now, whether that's going to make the difference or not I don't know, but I'd bet strongly that the reason it's on the 4p bonus for all tanks is because they wanted tanks to have another cooldown for hard modes.

    In which case, you're stuck doing things like armor trinkets and a couple of enchants for your extra armor.

    Let me know how that armor on Sindragosa works out for you.

  10. #90
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    Someone once said this to me when I was asking what made a good tank: "What makes a good tank is reliability." When I'm tanking I do every little thing in my power to make sure that I survive. Not might survive, not probable to survive...will survive.

    On a fight like Festergut that means that I've got my health where I want it, I have the right consumables ready, I have my cooldowns planned out, I spoke with healers beforehand about external cooldowns, I'm communicating in ventrilo when the inhale stacks are getting to a threatening range and the situation on my cooldowns...in short, chance isn't something I'm fond of.
    Right.

    And some times chance is all you get. Some times health is detrimental to you, and the idea of healers having infinite mana is incorrect. Some times (and this is the key) while health is good, something else is better.

    I guess I'm mostly going against the notion not that avoidance is worse than EH (because most of the time that's true) but that stamina conquers all, which is where most of these discussions end up. And that's simply not the case in this expansion, especially on fights that are most likely to threaten a tank's survival. In each tier (Sarth, Vezax, Anub (and twice on him) ) we've seen a fight where the tank's survival was tantamount and the best gearing strategy against him was something other than raw health (or at least not raw health alone), and it certainly wasn't EH either.

    Put it another way: if you're not able to use both sides of the multiplier (health * resistance) then it's not EH. It's armor, or MR, or health. And you're not gearing for EH; you're gearing for one of those. Why? Because one of the tenets of gearing for EH is being able to use either health or resistance (physical or magical) interchangeably, depending on which gives you the biggest overall win. If you can't do that...it's not EH.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Off topic - But yea there is. Good use of cooldowns plus ample stacking of ironshields and armor gear. Festergut's average hit was somewhere in the 16-17K range, with a maximum of 26,000 I think this week. Easily within the EH ranges for 100% survivability, and the numbers should be similar to any other tank.
    26kish hits were the maximum I observed, plus his instant Gastric Bloat attack (which you forget). If you read back, you may see that these values are exactly what my analysis was based on. His "average hit" is irrelevant for this, this is solely about being at two inhales and worst case analysis. You can't base EH requirements on average hits: EH theory is designed around the assumption of being able to handle the worst case, not the average case. If you go by the average hit, you have no basis for speaking of 100% survivability.

    Also there is no reason a tank should be in 245 gear anymore.
    Some people do take time off for the holidays. Some may have started raiding only a month or two ago. My average item level on my resto shaman is pretty much precisely 245, and I have been doing ICC almost every week since it came out and have been actively acquiring upgrades, including crafted items.

  12. #92
    In each tier (Sarth, Vezax, Anub (and twice on him) ) we've seen a fight where the tank's survival was tantamount and the best gearing strategy against him was something other than raw health (or at least not raw health alone), and it certainly wasn't EH either.
    On Sarth the first people to do it successfully (As far as I know, on my server at least) went with stamina. Maybe it wasn't the best, yeah. But your strategy of using resistances is basically - as was stated before - still an EH strategy in the end. But you know that, despite seeming to insist the contrary just now.

    On Vezax there's still disagreement there. I would agree that when healer mana starts to matter, avoidance gets better and better...but even on Vezax hard mode the question of whether or not healers were running OOM always seemed to be in question and a lot of folks posit that it was easy to heal the tank anyway.

    As for Anub...Stamina isn't BAD. Just that armor (and resistance, but not for the same thing) were better choices. Which - in the end - still equated to an EH strategy. I'm sure no one went with heavy avoidance. And the adds...lets not even talk about that stupid gimmick. Worst design ever, sorry. =/

    As for the semantics...yeah, it's not "EH" without both sides. But it's easier to say, "EH vs. Avoidance" rather than "Stats like stamina, armor, and resistance vs. avoidance". Most people know what you're referring to in most cases.

    That said, I'm not trying to say "stamina > all" in every case. I'm simply a much bigger fan of the reliable versus the chance and I still believe that for any given fight that threatens the tank, there is a *reliable* way to ensure tank survivability. Whether that way be Stamina, Armor, Resistance, Cooldowns or Consumables. When the system changes in Cataclysm as it's supposed to do, I'm sure all our views will change, too.

    Roana: I guess I still don't get what your point is...is it that there's no way to ever survive current content without luck, so avoidance is good? Frankly you just seem very contrary but without a specific point.
    Last edited by Bovinity; 01-13-2010 at 11:29 AM.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Roana and I have had similar discussions before. I guess I'm just a student of the school of reliability...assuming the strategy is sound and everyone is doing their job, there are 100% reliable ways to tank things like Festergut.
    I'm very much in favor of reliability myself. What I'm questioning is the claim that EH is a 100% reliable way of tanking Festergut. When I see top 100 guilds having the occasional wipe due to tank deaths on Festergut, I think it's realistic to say that this 100% reliability estimate is at least a few percentage points short. More so if you're not a top 100 guild.

  14. #94
    Even top 100 guilds are human. Mistakes get made. Or there's lag, or people stand too close and get Vile Gas chained, or other failings that are just natural. Or they're using warriors to tank. (ZING!...ok, sorry, that was a joke. I know someone would leap all over it if I didn't clearly say it's a joke)

    But that's doesn't mean that the strategy was flawed or that the tank's gearing methods failed. A failure in the raid elsewhere doesn't imply a failure on the tank's part. And even if there was a problem with the tank, avoidance still won't fix it. It'll just give the tank a slightly better chance of getting lucky and skating through that one time. I can't imagine that's how top 100 guilds think.

    Also: I'm about 62k now! (I think...maybe higher?) Take that, Festergut, you jerk. Come gib me now!
    Last edited by Bovinity; 01-13-2010 at 11:46 AM.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roana View Post
    26kish hits were the maximum I observed,
    Yea, and 52000 is easily achievable. The average was a point of reference, I was using the maximum values for the EH. If you can't heal within a 3 attack span it's on your healers.
    Festergut is not a random fight, or an avoidance fight. He is always 100% killable without tank death if you gear correctly. He hardly becomes an avoidance fight simply because you aren't geared properly for the encounter yet. If anything it's quite the opposite.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 01-13-2010 at 11:57 AM.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    You're wrong because you're saying it's always better - and it isn't. There's at least one encounter per tier where this gearing strategy is suboptimal.

    You're wrong because you're using EH as 'stamina, armor, and resistance' - which it never has been.

    As to gearing for armor - in icecrown, you sort of can. If you get only those craftable items and a couple other drops, yes, you can gear for armor. However, you're giving up for all that armor a 10% cooldown every minute (basically), which is again suboptimal for some fights. Now, whether that's going to make the difference or not I don't know, but I'd bet strongly that the reason it's on the 4p bonus for all tanks is because they wanted tanks to have another cooldown for hard modes.

    In which case, you're stuck doing things like armor trinkets and a couple of enchants for your extra armor.

    Let me know how that armor on Sindragosa works out for you.
    RESISTANCE WAS CHANGED. It isn't spike resistances anymore like Hydross 1.0. It's constant reduction with tiered values. It might as well be considered on the EH train for certain fights with constant and predictable magical damage. Not sure why you are fighting on this. Is it true EH? No. Does it function just like armor for fights like Anub? Yes, it sure as hell does.

    You clearly didn't do Sindragosa on test.

    I have no idea where people are getting the idea that armor is difficult to gear for. There is an extra armor neck, cape, chestpiece, bracers, gloves, belt, legs, several extra armor rings, 3 armor trinkets. There are armor enchants, armor patches, and the option to gear agility. You can stack armor all day long in ICC, VERY VERY easily. I have 34XXX unbuffed on my DK, a raw value gain of almost 4000 over where I was a month ago, without a trinket switch. You can fluctuate from 31K-39K based on using set pieces vs. offset badge pieces, trinkets vs. stamina trinkets, etc. Don't be stubborn for the sake of being stubborn.

    I also made it clear that there ARE gimmick encounters. Aside from those, EH is optimal. So no, I'm not wrong. Also feel free to cite the encounter in ToGC or Icecrown currently in game where avoidance is the stat to stack aside from Anubarak. I'll wait. (And please, don't waste my time by citing Saurfang, where his average hits are about 6-7,000 and you could tank him half naked and win).

  17. #97
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    I also made it clear that there ARE gimmick encounters. Aside from those, EH is optimal. So no, I'm not wrong. Also feel free to cite the encounter in ToGC or Icecrown currently in game where avoidance is the stat to stack aside from Anubarak.
    Aside from Anub'arak?

    So you're saying aside from all the encounters that threaten the tank that don't rely on EH, all the encounters that threaten the tank rely on EH?

    Come on. That's an especially idiotic argument. If you want to call any encounter that doesn't stress EH a 'gimmick' fight that's your prerogative, but at the end of the day it doesn't make gearing for it any less suboptimal if you went OMG stam or OMG armor. The fact is that there aren't that many fights that specifically threaten tank survival; Patch and Sarth in T7, Vezax and Thorim in T8, Beasts and Anub in T9, Fester and...who knows now. And in each case, there was one fight where EH was clearly the big win - and one fight where EH wasn't as good as another gearing choice.

    Bovinity - you might hate the encounter design for Anub - and that's reasonable. But it's the hardest thing for tanks in the game right now, and it requires something clearly different than EH to do well at. Which is solely my point: gear to the encounter, not blindly to a rationale.

    On Sarth the first people to do it successfully (As far as I know, on my server at least) went with stamina. Maybe it wasn't the best, yeah. But your strategy of using resistances is basically - as was stated before - still an EH strategy in the end. But you know that, despite seeming to insist the contrary just now.
    It's not, and that's the thing. It's MEH at best, not EH, but the important thing on Sarth was that you could sacrifice almost everything to survive that one big hit and nothing else mattered. On Anub it wasn't about EH at all - it was specifically about armor and resistance. If you calculated your MEH the set was suboptimal compared to many others BECAUSE you didn't want as much health. Gearing for MEH or EH was a suboptimal choice.

    Again, that's the point: if you're saying 'always gear for EH' that means something different than 'always gear for stamina' or 'always gear for armor' or 'gear for the thing that gives the most reliable survival rate'. If you want to redefine EH, go ahead - but that's not what a lot of people understand it to actually mean.

  18. #98
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    I have no idea where people are getting the idea that armor is difficult to gear for. There is an extra armor neck, cape, chestpiece, bracers, gloves, belt, legs, several extra armor rings, 3 armor trinkets. There are armor enchants, armor patches, and the option to gear agility. You can stack armor all day long in ICC, VERY VERY easily. I have 34XXX unbuffed on my DK, a raw value gain of almost 4000 over where I was a month ago, without a trinket switch. You can fluctuate from 31K-39K based on using set pieces vs. offset badge pieces, trinkets vs. stamina trinkets, etc. Don't be stubborn for the sake of being stubborn.
    Okay, I want to speak to this a bit. The point I was trying to make is that these aren't for the most part options - especially for a druid. The druid gets the choice of an armor neck...or a parry one. Gee, that's some option. For the most part the choice for tanks isn't between armor and avoidance, it's armor vs. hit or expertise.

    Or it's simply the better piece in general, in which case you're not making another choice either.

    Now where you ARE making a choice is on the tier pieces, where you have the decision of going for more armor or a set bonus. That's why I said that there's a real choice there. But otherwise? Yeah, you can gem for agility and get a whopping 400 armor instead of 600 stamina, but I don't think that's a really good case to make when you're saying that you can reasonably gear for armor.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Okay, I want to speak to this a bit. The point I was trying to make is that these aren't for the most part options - especially for a druid. The druid gets the choice of an armor neck...or a parry one. Gee, that's some option. For the most part the choice for tanks isn't between armor and avoidance, it's armor vs. hit or expertise.

    Or it's simply the better piece in general, in which case you're not making another choice either.

    Now where you ARE making a choice is on the tier pieces, where you have the decision of going for more armor or a set bonus. That's why I said that there's a real choice there. But otherwise? Yeah, you can gem for agility and get a whopping 400 armor instead of 600 stamina, but I don't think that's a really good case to make when you're saying that you can reasonably gear for armor.
    For druids, yes. For the 3 other classes, every piece has an ilvl option. Most pieces have 3 ilvl options.

  20. #100
    It's not, and that's the thing. It's MEH at best, not EH, but the important thing on Sarth was that you could sacrifice almost everything to survive that one big hit and nothing else mattered. On Anub it wasn't about EH at all - it was specifically about armor and resistance. If you calculated your MEH the set was suboptimal compared to many others BECAUSE you didn't want as much health. Gearing for MEH or EH was a suboptimal choice.

    Again, that's the point: if you're saying 'always gear for EH' that means something different than 'always gear for stamina' or 'always gear for armor' or 'gear for the thing that gives the most reliable survival rate'. If you want to redefine EH, go ahead - but that's not what a lot of people understand it to actually mean.
    I apologize for the semantics issues, then.

    I suppose it'll be more exact to say that I prefer survival over avoidance, where survival is any combination of health, stamina, resistance or other values that provide a static, predictable result.

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