Closed Thread
Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 178

Thread: By role By Boss EH vs Avoidance

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Very interested to see what happens, and would love to see a log.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  2. #62
    Well, since I know you know the damage profile on Gormok, I'm sure you know pretty much exactly what'll happen. =D

  3. #63
    Healers cannot always catch up with incoming DPS . They sometimes have to move, get incapacited or whatever and avoidance just helps with that. Take a look at Algalon in proper gear (so no outgearing allowed) and he can just rip you a new one within 2 secs while your healers are moving from a Black Hole spawn or Cosmic Smash. Obviously avoidance only has a chance to reduce incoming DPS but atleast it works sometimes. Keep in mind that Proletaria and you are arguing that there is no difference between 0% avoidance or 65% avoidance on bosses which I think is just silly. You don't have to stack avoidance to learn to appreciate it.

    It should be similar to Festergut as well.

  4. #64
    Keep in mind that Proletaria and you are arguing that there is no difference between 0% avoidance or 65% avoidance on bosses which I think is just silly. You don't have to stack avoidance to learn to appreciate it.
    Ah-ah-ah...no one said that. In repeated threads, EH supporters have said time and time again that avoidance isn't bad. That avoidance is a desirable stat. What avoidance is NOT is a stat that one gears for, hoping to rely on it for survival. It's not a stat that will let healers heal differently, it's not a stat that will make a tank any more durable or reliable on difficult content.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Ah-ah-ah...no one said that. In repeated threads, EH supporters have said time and time again that avoidance isn't bad. That avoidance is a desirable stat. What avoidance is NOT is a stat that one gears for, hoping to rely on it for survival. It's not a stat that will let healers heal differently, it's not a stat that will make a tank any more durable or reliable on difficult content.
    That is not what I got from "(Hint: No one will notice unless they check my raw incoming damage on Recount and even then it's questionable.)" though. Healers can and will tell a difference between 0% avoidance and 65% even if they are required to spam their biggest heals normally. I never said it lets healers heal differently because that would indicate they heal reactively which they obviously don't. But it does help them to recover from DPS spikes, moving and all that.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    493
    It's not a stat that allow healers to heal differently but despite comments on the prior page it is one that the better healers "feel." Put two similarly viable tanks in the hot seat on any given encounter and assuming all other factors are roughly approximate but one has slightly better avoidance and they'll "feel" subtle difference. Same sort of thing happens with mitigation. Healers don't quantify it necessarily they just know the other guy is easier to keep up. It all goes back to that line in Agg's sig "DPS is science. Healing is art. Tanking is strategy."

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    580
    Quote Originally Posted by Liar View Post
    Healers cannot always catch up with incoming DPS . They sometimes have to move, get incapacited or whatever and avoidance just helps with that. Take a look at Algalon in proper gear (so no outgearing allowed) and he can just rip you a new one within 2 secs while your healers are moving from a Black Hole spawn or Cosmic Smash. Obviously avoidance only has a chance to reduce incoming DPS but atleast it works sometimes. Keep in mind that Proletaria and you are arguing that there is no difference between 0% avoidance or 65% avoidance on bosses which I think is just silly. You don't have to stack avoidance to learn to appreciate it.

    It should be similar to Festergut as well.
    You must have missed my repeated efforts to convince you that there is PLENTY OF BASELINE AVOIDANCE ON GEAR and that you cannot assume that anyone is arguing that 0%, 5% avoidance figures are ideal.

    You've strayed off into hyperbole and nonsense. The point is, was, and always will be, that gaining 5-6% avoidance at the cost of thousands of HP does not make you easier to heal and it generally hinders you in 99% of avalible content. End of story.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    You must have missed my repeated efforts to convince you that there is PLENTY OF BASELINE AVOIDANCE ON GEAR and that you cannot assume that anyone is arguing that 0%, 5% avoidance figures are ideal.

    You've strayed off into hyperbole and nonsense. The point is, was, and always will be, that gaining 5-6% avoidance at the cost of thousands of HP does not make you easier to heal and it generally hinders you in 99% of avalible content. End of story.
    Ah my bad, for some reason I thought you said something like that having no avoidance doesn't matter. I agree that stacking it is not generally a good idea but avoidance definitely isn't useless, that was my point.

  9. #69
    That is not what I got from "(Hint: No one will notice unless they check my raw incoming damage on Recount and even then it's questionable.)" though.
    That was kind of a joke because I picked Gormok for my example. Just about everything threatening that he does is unavoidable, so it wasn't a terribly fair test.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    721
    Yeah, there's some exceptions, I'm sure. Someone will quote one. Ready, set, go
    Okay: Anub'arak. EH (naively) is a detriment compared to avoidance if you go for high stamina only, and armor doesn't provide as much benefit on the MT. On the add tank, avoidance was far superior to EH when combined with block and in general.

    Vezax hard mode: avoidance was significantly better than EH when mana is an issue.
    and to a lesser extent: Patchwerk (would allow one less tank with high avoidance).

    Current fights: nothing stresses one or the other save Festergut, and once again EH doesn't matter as much as CD utilization.

    Algalon, but we've fought about that.

    Essentially any fight where attacks are frequent enough where avoidance becomes statistically relevant, avoidance is likely going to be competitive with EH. Any fight where mana is an issue (or healing is), avoidance is going to be competitive. Any fight with debuffs will have avoidance be competitive.

    And to be clear: almost always the answer isn't EH, it's stamina. Stamina, not EH, is universally useful on every fight (save Anub) because it has some benefit on spells and some benefit on physical damage. However, the benefit does decrease to a point where it's not particularly useful, and other things can have a bigger benefit depending on the fight.

    As to EH vs avoidance in ICC so far:
    Marrowgar: EH (though avoidance is great on the OT)
    Deathwhisper: not that it matters, but stamina for the worst-case
    Gunship: avoidance
    Saurfang: Avoidance
    Festergut: EH (and really armor)
    Rotface: stamina (most of the scary damage is spell-related)
    Putricide: stamina

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Okay: Anub'arak. EH (naively) is a detriment compared to avoidance if you go for high stamina only, and armor doesn't provide as much benefit on the MT. On the add tank, avoidance was far superior to EH when combined with block and in general.

    Vezax hard mode: avoidance was significantly better than EH when mana is an issue.
    and to a lesser extent: Patchwerk (would allow one less tank with high avoidance).

    Current fights: nothing stresses one or the other save Festergut, and once again EH doesn't matter as much as CD utilization.

    Algalon, but we've fought about that.

    Essentially any fight where attacks are frequent enough where avoidance becomes statistically relevant, avoidance is likely going to be competitive with EH. Any fight where mana is an issue (or healing is), avoidance is going to be competitive. Any fight with debuffs will have avoidance be competitive.

    And to be clear: almost always the answer isn't EH, it's stamina. Stamina, not EH, is universally useful on every fight (save Anub) because it has some benefit on spells and some benefit on physical damage. However, the benefit does decrease to a point where it's not particularly useful, and other things can have a bigger benefit depending on the fight.

    As to EH vs avoidance in ICC so far:
    Marrowgar: EH (though avoidance is great on the OT)
    Deathwhisper: not that it matters, but stamina for the worst-case
    Gunship: avoidance
    Saurfang: Avoidance
    Festergut: EH (and really armor)
    Rotface: stamina (most of the scary damage is spell-related)
    Putricide: stamina
    Minus almost everything you said being terribly wrong, dead on.
    The only boss you could make a legitimate case for was Anubarak ADD tanking and Vezax because he had such slow and predicatable damage, as long as you broke 45K buffed HP to survive 2 hits. For MTing, armor and resistance were much better than avoidance.
    For every ICC boss, including gunship and saurfang, you gain virtually nothing by switching to avoidance sets over EH sets. The boss damage is so trivial it could be tanked in spirit gear.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    721
    We've had this argument before, Edge. And you were as wrong then as you are now. But that's okay; if anything, it points simply to nothing being so hard that it requires gearing from the tank to be so precise that nothing will survive it otherwise.

    Resistance isn't EH. And armor isn't particularly easy to gear for for the most part. You certainly can't gem for either, can you?
    For every ICC boss, including gunship and saurfang, you gain virtually nothing by switching to avoidance sets over EH sets. The boss damage is so trivial it could be tanked in spirit gear.
    Which is what I stated. The encounters favor one over the other, but like I said - it doesn't end up mattering. Even EH doesn't matter that much on Festergut; external CDs can take care of any dangerous bits.
    Last edited by felhoof; 01-12-2010 at 05:40 PM.

  13. #73
    I dont' think anyone counts Anub adds as a serious indication of anything. Hate those. ><

    But yeah, I knew someone would throw Anub out there. =D

    Though I'm curious as to why folks are still saying avoidance is great on Gunship and Saurfang...the Gunship captain still stacks his damage buff even if his attacks are avoided and Saurfang still damages Mark targets if his melee swings are avoided. I suppose Saurfang really isn't a threat to tanks, so avoidance is a fun way to drop your damage taken...but if the boss isn't a threat to the tank at all anyway, it becomes moot.

    However, the benefit does decrease to a point where it's not particularly useful, and other things can have a bigger benefit depending on the fight.
    This I would somewhat disagree with. A lot of people have this view of EH where it's graphed like a "staircase". Basically where extra HP is completely useless until you are at the next "step", which signifies having enough EH to survive another attack.

    I suppose that's the closest visual approximation that we can use, but realistically every point of EH/HP that you have over the "required" to survive one hit is that much less healing that you need to survive the next.

    As an extreme example, if you have a 35k hp tank on Imaginarius (The boss in my head) and he's hitting him for 33k, the healers have to make up a whopping 31,001hp in 2 seconds or else our heroic tank is toast. Even if the healers manage to heal him for MORE than that 31,001hp, it almost all just goes to overhealing anyway.

    On the other hand, another tank is sitting at 65k hp. It's still not enough to survive 2 attacks, but when he gets hit by Imaginarius for 33k he's sitting pretty at 32k and the healers have to only slap a measly 1,001hp on him for him to survive the next attack. Everything over that 1,001hp doesn't go to overhealing, it goes into his HP bucket to make the next hit easier to heal through, etc.

    Granted as each situation here continues on, both tanks would die since we're assuming the healers are having trouble keeping up with the 33k hits in the first place (Maybe due to lots of movement, incapacitates, all those things that avoidance advocates talk about). But the higher HP tank has the luxury of needing less healing to make up the deficits during those danger moments AND he's not relying on a percentage chance to do it.

    To make a long story short, I would say that EH/HP never really reaches a point where its value significantly diminishes. If anything, when you're between those "steps" on the graph, every bit of health gets more and more useful until you hit that magical point where you can survive another whole attack without heals.

    EDIT: This ALL changes if Blizzard does what they've said they're thinking about...which is making HP pools relatively larger across the board and making healer mana something that's truly a significant limiting factor. Suddenly avoidance becomes an awesome stat. I think I would greatly enjoy that world over the one we're in now.
    Last edited by Bovinity; 01-12-2010 at 05:44 PM.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    721
    To make a long story short, I would say that EH/HP never really reaches a point where its value significantly diminishes. If anything, when you're between those "steps" on the graph, every bit of health gets more and more useful until you hit that magical point where you can survive another whole attack without heals.
    That's reasonable, but somewhat naive I think. Healers are still going to have to heal those deficits eventually, and them healing immediately now or in two seconds is a luxury that often isn't really the case in real encounters. It's a good to have thing - but a lot of times you'll get more gain from other sources.

    And the benefit I was talking about is more closer to the 6-7 second threshold, not the 2-second one. If you can take all the boss dishes out and still live for 6 seconds without a heal, chances are that 7th second isn't going to save you either. That's where the value diminshes.

    As to avoidance on Gunship: the advantage is that you're taking less damage. That's a big deal. It means you may not have to retreat quite as fast. That's nice. It's nothing to do with the stacks, and everything to do with incoming DPS. On Saurfang, it's a simple minimization of damage; because his damage is so slight, you can in theory reduce it considerably with block and avoidance.

  15. #75
    As to avoidance on Gunship: the advantage is that you're taking less damage. That's a big deal. It means you may not have to retreat quite as fast.
    Don't most people just retreat as soon as the mage is dead anyway, which doesn't take very long at all?

    On Saurfang, it's a simple minimization of damage; because his damage is so slight, you can in theory reduce it considerably with block and avoidance.
    Grr, block. This is true. But again, we're talking about a boss that currently is really of no threat to the tank anyway, so its hard to really place it in the current discussion.

    And the benefit I was talking about is more closer to the 6-7 second threshold, not the 2-second one. If you can take all the boss dishes out and still live for 6 seconds without a heal, chances are that 7th second isn't going to save you either. That's where the value diminshes.
    I would strongly disagree here! 7 seconds is >>>> 6 seconds, time has no diminishing returns! Although that's a little different from what I was talking about. Either way, as a healer, I can safely say that one second is the world when it comes to saving folks.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    721
    You really feel like a tank that can survive 7 seconds without heals is better than one that can only survive 6 seconds? And demonstrably so? I'd say that if your tank isn't getting any heals in 6 seconds something else is horribly wrong.

    As to Gunship - the difficulty is talking about I'm on A Boat, where you have to hang out over there for a while.

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    240
    Avoidance is a powerful stat when Healers end up in situations where they are OOM. This hasn't happened in a long while, not since old school endurance fights before all the raid-wide mana replenishing abilities.

    That isn't to say that there may be sweeping changes to make this happen, but it's good to know so that you can recognize if it if does happen, especially when we have a bunch of guides right now that say EH is king and this paradigm shift happens and then the rules and guides have to be rewritten.
    Stay strong. Stay smart. All heart.

  18. #78
    As to Gunship - the difficulty is talking about I'm on A Boat, where you have to hang out over there for a while.
    Yah, I've got On a Boat 10 and 25. Didn't have to stay longer, we just split into teams generally. But there's different strategies, I recognize that. =)

    You really feel like a tank that can survive 7 seconds without heals is better than one that can only survive 6 seconds? And demonstrably so? I'd say that if your tank isn't getting any heals in 6 seconds something else is horribly wrong.
    Well, yes...I do. But you're right, something else is terribly wrong in that case. But 7 sec is also an eternity compared to 6.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    Resistance isn't EH.
    Resistance does now provide guaranteed reduction values for magic damage, so it can be considered part of MEH now.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by felhoof View Post
    We've had this argument before, Edge. And you were as wrong then as you are now. But that's okay; if anything, it points simply to nothing being so hard that it requires gearing from the tank to be so precise that nothing will survive it otherwise.

    Resistance isn't EH. And armor isn't particularly easy to gear for for the most part. You certainly can't gem for either, can you?Which is what I stated. The encounters favor one over the other, but like I said - it doesn't end up mattering. Even EH doesn't matter that much on Festergut; external CDs can take care of any dangerous bits.

    Resistance IS EH in the EH v Avoidance spectrum now. It functions like armor. Armor is EXTREMELY EXTREMELY EXTREMELY easy to gear for now. I wish you and Satorri would go to the armory and look at the newly available gear.

    How am I wrong? Because avoidance helps healers save mana (something you can't run out of) on fights that are absolutely trivial and puggable?
    Because there is only one encounter in the game where avoidance is effective, and every other encounter is almost guaranteed to be easier with an EH tank?
    Please.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 01-12-2010 at 07:09 PM.

Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts