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Thread: By role By Boss EH vs Avoidance

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I hate this argument. Avoidance was ridiculously skewed with no diminishing returns to keep it in line. Gear was perfectly itemized for avoidance, there weren't heavy stamina / armor options that you could use instead.
    TBC content is no longer relevant in any argument.
    DR isn't much of an issue, though--at least not yet. You're still comparing X EH vs. Y% Avoidance. From everything I can find to compare data points with, the average tank now in ICC has more avoidance than the average tank in Sunwell did.

    Also, in comparing most of the Sunwell items' avoidance values to currently available options, the amount of avoidance per piece of armor is roughly the same (or more, in many cases), even post-DR.

    No, not really sure what argument is to be made there, exactly.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistersix View Post
    and by role (offtank, main tank). Pretty sure that was the op's intent.
    Aye, shame everyone seems intent on the same old debate.

    Let's take a stab at some comments/tips/opinions shall we?


    Marrowgar
    MT + 2 OT. Hits moderately hard, frequently using his sabre lash attack which is applied across all 3 tanks. Sabre lash can be individually avoided by each of the tanks. Threat is wiped following bonestorm. Majority of damage is physical provided you don't stand in frost.
    Gear choices:
    MT might consider including threat pieces to ensure smooth transition out of bonestorm. Also consider taunt glyph (or equivalent)
    OT gear for max EH but once above a safe threshold, avoidance items may reduce healing load.

    Deathwhisper
    2+ MT according to strategy. Phase 1 tanking multiple fresh spawning adds, mix of physical and magical damage. Phase 2 transitioning to tank+spank with rotation between 2+ tanks forced by threat reduction debuff, weak melee with splash magic damage and high damage single target frostbolt that should be interrupted.
    Gear choices:
    Enough HP to survive getting hit by a frost bolt (in case of accidents) and then threat (hit/exp) gear for good add control in P1

    Gunship Battle
    1 Tank for Saurfang with high EH and potentially some avoidance gear.
    1 Tank for the boat, geared to pick up a series of adds spawning with fresh agro tables (hit/exp gear for control)

    Deathbringer Saurfang
    2 MT (assumes tank switching on Mark of Blood) rotating. Soft enrage at 35%. All damage physical.
    Gear Choices:
    Enough EH to comfortably survive the frenzy at 35%, then threat/avoidance gear as per personal preference/raid strategy. Consider glyph of taunt or equivalent.

    Festergut
    2 MT forced to switch by Gastric Bloat. Boss self buffs by inhaling, hits very hard once fully buffed. Majority of damage is physical.
    Gear Choices:
    Max EH gear. Consider trinkets with controlled cooldowns for use in planned rotation. Equip alternate weapons/sigils/etc for use when not tanking but buffed with gastric bloat.

    Rotface
    1 MT tanking boss, moderate hard hitter. No reason to tank switch, majority physical damage (some avoidable splash).
    1 OT kiting adds (aside: not sure what stops a dps doing this)
    Gear Choices:
    Normal EH gear for both MT and OT. OT may consider glyphs/gear to assist ranged threat/taunt (e.g. hit, glyph of taunt or equiv) and possibly trinkets with controlled cooldowns.

    Prof. Putricide
    (Speculating somewhat, not killed this in 25 man yet)
    1 MT tanking boss until phase 3. Moderate physical hits with chance of some magic splash. High chance of healer interruption (forced movement).
    2 OT tanking boss at 35%. Tank switch forced by Mutated Plague.
    Gear Choices
    Max EH for the MT and Abom driving OT. OT 3 will be a third wheel in p1+2, consider compromise in gear to increase dps.



    The kind of gear tuning I'm talking about isn't re-socketing all your gear for expertise or dodge... but I'm sure most tanks have a selection of trinkets in their bags, or a choice of weapons, or a spare set of gloves with armsman enchant, etc.
    Last edited by swelt; 01-11-2010 at 05:29 AM.

  3. #43
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    "1 OT kiting adds (aside: not sure what stops a dps doing this)"

    It's probably easier for a tank inasmuch as the big slimes have a very large hitbox and sometimes can melee from miles away. Getting caught by an accidental melee 20k hit (or two!) is survivable for a tank, but will gib a Hunter or whatever.

    Also there's a bit larger of a buffer when running through flooded zones, and the kiter may also have to eat some ticks of the Slime Spray from the boss depending on the distance/angle they are kiting at while the boss turns that direction.

    In this case, EH is pretty much the way to go as well as some Armor to bring down the large slime melee hits to a slightly more manageable amount.
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  4. #44
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    As I was briefing the raid yesterday, it did occur to me that a hunter would have pretty much all the tools they'd need and probably have an easier job of kiting, but we decided to stick with a tank as they have more options when things aren't going smoothly. DKs have the handy ability to put chains of ice on the little oozes, Paladins have the ability to control the cleansing themselves, none of these things as any gear considerations associated with it.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    You can try to character asassinate people who's viewpoint seems overly simplified. The truth is, i wish there were more encounters where it was necessary (or really just encouraged) to deviate from EH maximizing, but this just isn't reality. You can equip your courpsetounge coin whenever and for what ever purpose you like, but that doesn't make it mathematically more effective. Most data on that particular trinket seem to suggest it's easily leap-frogged aswell.
    I wasn't character assassinating anyone, your reply simply stated exactly what I said before ('EH > avoid', no numbers). Anyway, the discussion already moved on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Maybe not proven in a mathematical theorem posted somewhere. But it's demonstrated every time we run into a boss that poses a significant threat to the tanks.

    That's bolded because its important. People can talk about Saurfang and such and say that avoidance is great there, but he doesn't pose a significant threat to most tanks to begin with.

    On the other hand, what did we need a lot of on Beasts 25-heroic (or possibly even Festergut-25)? It sure wasn't dodge or parry.

    Yes, it's simplified. We know that. A lot of people lament that fact a lot. And I know it's human nature to think, "Well, that's SO simple, there's no way it can be right." It feels good to think you've put together some magical "balanced" set. People like thinking, "I'm not just another stamina stacker!"

    But the fact is that a lot of bosses demand the high EH, no bosses demand high avoidance, no bosses punish you for high EH. Even without the argument of one being better than the other or not, the fact is that one is simply safer and never "wrong".
    Nobody is talking about high avoidance, it's more about trade-offs in the 9 stamina socket bonus range (usually 6sta : 10 dodge) or perhaps the shoulder enchant, just to give some examples. This probably doesn't apply for bears at all because of their stamina multipliers.

    I wouldn't say one is safer and never wrong though, even if it sure looks safer on the character sheet. I think that the tanks chance of taking X hits in a row (or burst time) is often underestimated, especially if bosses swing as fast as they currently do in ICC. If for example Festergut decides to connect 6-7 times in a row at high stacks, I doubt any realistic amount of EH is going to help mucht, at least as a plate tank. Of course this is not the best example because you are going to be using cooldowns anyway, but you get the point.

    In the end, you will often survive because you avoided a hit and the healers caught up again. Sure you already have a certain amount of avoidance from gear already, but that doesn't mean it's always best to plug 30 stamina into every socket or the like.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    DR isn't much of an issue, though--at least not yet. You're still comparing X EH vs. Y% Avoidance. From everything I can find to compare data points with, the average tank now in ICC has more avoidance than the average tank in Sunwell did.
    I actually went to dig out some old screenshots because I wasn't sure myself anymore, this is what I found: http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/511...0408214149.jpg

    Caveat: I am using The Suneater instead of Broken Promise and have like 3 Sunwell items already (bracers, belt and pants from what I can tell from the icons). Even if you substract 25% avoidance it is still a whole lot more than I have now in ICC with a few 264 items already (which should cancel out the partial Sunwell gear I have in the shot). On top of that, Moroes Pocketwatch and Mongoose were ALOT better back then, too.

  7. #47
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    Hmm.. based on some quick napkin math of Defense contribution to Miss and then adjusting downward for boss-level mob and removing 25% avoidance I peg you at very close to the current high-end ICC avoidance level. Perhaps a little higher, but not a massive difference. Although my Def conversion math is a bit fuzzy on those older scales. :P

    Think you have a bit more avoidance than our Warrior tank did at the time (I was on my Priest during that period) due to a few of your gear choices. For comparison, currently I have roughly 71% Avoidance fully raid-buffed against a level 80 NPC.

    Although you do have a good point about stuff like the Pocketwatch and Mongoose back then having a far more major impact than currently available options.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 01-11-2010 at 07:22 AM.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Hmm.. based on some quick napkin math of Defense contribution to Miss and then adjusting downward for boss-level mob and removing 25% avoidance I peg you at very close to the current high-end ICC avoidance level. Perhaps a little higher, but not a massive difference. Although my Def conversion math is a bit fuzzy on those older scales. :P

    Think you have a bit more avoidance than our Warrior tank did at the time (I was on my Priest during that period) due to a few of your gear choices. For comparison, currently I have roughly 71% Avoidance fully raid-buffed against a level 80 NPC.

    Although you do have a good point about stuff like the Pocketwatch and Mongoose back then having a far more major impact than currently available options.
    Unless I am remembering wrong, I was gemming dodge rating exclusively during that stage of TBC and getting socket bonuses with avoidance hybrid gems (basically the complete opposite of today). Found another shot lying around with like 2 more Sunwell pieces just to illustrate what I thought of avoidance back then. :P

    http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/453...3108183521.jpg

    (Ignore the chat, it took us like 20 Teron runs for the gun to drop so :Q)

    And yeah, I still think that trinkets that give +avoidance on use shouldn't be on DRs, but maybe that's just me. Would make their use alot better.

    EDIT: Also wasn't Scorpid Sting/Insect Swarm reducing mob hit change by more than 3% in TBC? Or they stacked or something?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    DR isn't much of an issue, though--at least not yet. You're still comparing X EH vs. Y% Avoidance. From everything I can find to compare data points with, the average tank now in ICC has more avoidance than the average tank in Sunwell did.

    Also, in comparing most of the Sunwell items' avoidance values to currently available options, the amount of avoidance per piece of armor is roughly the same (or more, in many cases), even post-DR.

    No, not really sure what argument is to be made there, exactly.

    Without DR you were getting a scaling value for every point of dodge. Tanks in Sunwell were pushing 45% dodge, 24% parry, 30% block, and XX miss without much of a sacrifice. You also had Moroes Pocketwatch offering 15% dodge on a 2 minute cooldown. Yea... you had a lot more avoidance.

    Also you clearly aren't understanding my point. Sunwell did NOT have armor options. There were maybe 2-3 pieces that had an equivalent or a choice, but you had a single best in slot set. You didn't have options to stack armor and stamina, or avoidance, or switch out trinkets to get 4000 life or 4% dodge or 4000 armor. If we had those options back then you might have seen multiple gearsets for Brutallus, but since we didnt, pure dodge gemming was the only logical choice.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 01-11-2010 at 11:40 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dots View Post
    In the end, you will often survive because you avoided a hit and the healers caught up again. Sure you already have a certain amount of avoidance from gear already, but that doesn't mean it's always best to plug 30 stamina into every socket or the like.
    And that is the point of contention. You think that avoiding a hit at random helps healers. They cannot predict when you are going to avoid. They can predict roughly how long you will live without avoiding. As long as there is a chance 4 hits will connect and those 4 consecutive hits will kill you, they are going to heal as though 4 hits connected. The same can be said if it's 3 hits or 2 hits aswell. Having more avoidance just doesn't translate into an easier job for healers in practice, at least not in this content.

  11. #51
    I think you misunderstood Dots. He is not saying that avoidance will prevent 4 hits in a row, it just decreases the chances of it. Avoidance is there to give healers breathing room WHILE they spam heal so they can catch up. Healers may not run OOM but they have a maximum amount of HPS they can burst or sustain, and avoidance definitely helps with this.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    And that is the point of contention. You think that avoiding a hit at random helps healers. They cannot predict when you are going to avoid. They can predict roughly how long you will live without avoiding. As long as there is a chance 4 hits will connect and those 4 consecutive hits will kill you, they are going to heal as though 4 hits connected. The same can be said if it's 3 hits or 2 hits aswell. Having more avoidance just doesn't translate into an easier job for healers in practice, at least not in this content.
    Not to mention that if you're in a situation where you need to avoid a hit to "catch up", you're already pretty much doomed because that means that either you're unable to survive the incoming damage or the healers can't keep up with the incoming damage. So you're either dodging or dying, basically.

    The exception, of course, is getting lucky and living due to extra dodges/parries when healers are incapacitated in some way. (Just mentioning it because I'm sure someone will throw it out there as if it invalidates the entire point.)

  13. #53
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    Why is no-one ever talking about thresholds?

    You need enough EH to survive a the big boss burst. This is your minimum EH to successfully tank an encounter. In current content on most encounters this threshold is often easily met. With unenchanted ungemmed gear.

    What you do after that is fair game. Do you feel like giving your healers more buffer or do you feel like making bad scenarios happen less often. Whichever you choose, as long as you meet the minimum EH you can successfully tank an encounter.

    Also: never stop thinking, carry multiple sets and gear for the encounter.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    Why is no-one ever talking about thresholds?

    You need enough EH to survive a the big boss burst. This is your minimum EH to successfully tank an encounter. In current content on most encounters this threshold is often easily met. With unenchanted ungemmed gear.
    I think you answered your own question. It's not worth talking about if we do it by default.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    Why is no-one ever talking about thresholds?

    You need enough EH to survive a the big boss burst. This is your minimum EH to successfully tank an encounter. In current content on most encounters this threshold is often easily met. With unenchanted ungemmed gear.

    What you do after that is fair game. Do you feel like giving your healers more buffer or do you feel like making bad scenarios happen less often. Whichever you choose, as long as you meet the minimum EH you can successfully tank an encounter.

    Also: never stop thinking, carry multiple sets and gear for the encounter.
    While i do carry the somtimes-equipment in my bags, as i mentioned in an earlier posts, more often than not i find the thresholds too dynamic to really bank on. A debuff falling at the right second, a healer getting cc'd for slightly longer than usual, or any other twist of fate that leads to slightly less healing or slightly more tank damage can throw your perfect EH level into not quite enough.

    This is of-course assuming the content is tuned tightly enough for this to matter, and frankly I think we can all agree that current content really isn't, unless you want to include anub, the gunship achievment, or putricide p3.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Not to mention that if you're in a situation where you need to avoid a hit to "catch up", you're already pretty much doomed because that means that either you're unable to survive the incoming damage or the healers can't keep up with the incoming damage. So you're either dodging or dying, basically.
    This it not entirely true, you might avoid this hit at any point, half health, 1 swing before you die, whatever. At some point you will have to avoid or you will not be kept alive, this is true for pretty much every hard hitting boss.

    I already suggested this a few pages ago: stand with your back to a hard hitting boss while tanking it and let us know how far you get. (Once again though, this whole point is less true for druids than for the plate wearing classes)

  17. #57
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    To add to Dots post there is no such thing as a guaranteed avoided hit. Your avoidence is a roll of the die so even having 99% avoidence and your at 5 HP and need to avoid the next hit you can still eat the blow and die. HP is a constant unless there is a debuff that reduces it during the fight ie 50K is 50K you just need to heal it.

    stand with your back to a hard hitting boss while tanking it and let us know how far you get.
    quoted for gold

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dots View Post
    This it not entirely true, you might avoid this hit at any point, half health, 1 swing before you die, whatever. At some point you will have to avoid or you will not be kept alive, this is true for pretty much every hard hitting boss.

    I already suggested this a few pages ago: stand with your back to a hard hitting boss while tanking it and let us know how far you get. (Once again though, this whole point is less true for druids than for the plate wearing classes)
    You should never be counting on an avoid to live. If you are doing so, your healers are failing you. This is even more true the harder a boss hits. Secondly, turn your back to the boss? I'll assume that was a joke.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proletaria View Post
    You should never be counting on an avoid to live. If you are doing so, your healers are failing you. This is even more true the harder a boss hits. Secondly, turn your back to the boss? I'll assume that was a joke.
    I am not counting on avoiding a specific melee swing at a specific time to live. I am counting on avoiding at random intervals every now and then to survive the total incoming damage.

    Turning your back to a boss was not a joke, it easily shows that avoidance is very much needed. If you don't want to rely on avoidance to survive, give it a go.

  20. #60
    Ok. I'll turn my back on Gormok 25-heroic tonight and let you know how it goes.

    (Hint: No one will notice unless they check my raw incoming damage on Recount and even then it's questionable.)

    I am not counting on avoiding a specific melee swing at a specific time to live. I am counting on avoiding at random intervals every now and then to survive the total incoming damage.
    The problem is, this is largely irrelevant. The current paradigm of tanking and healing is such that if everyone is doing their job, the healers HPS is vastly out pacing the DPS of the boss even ignoring avoidance. Given that and the current situation of mana pools and regeneration, healers "keeping up" is rarely an issue whether the tank dodges or not.

    Where the danger comes in is the bursts. It's during these generally too-short-to-be-statistically-relevant times when everything comes together and matters. This is why when someone says you "need avoidance to survive Festergut" that it's silly because if the tank is going to die in 2 hits, avoidance isn't going to do a lot unless you get that magical situation in which you dodge attacks in a perfectly alternating pattern.

    Now I'm sure everyone has those little anecdotes about how avoidance swooped in and saved the day. Even I have them...there was this one time when I was tanking Anub and he seriously WOULD NOT KILL ME. It was nuts, healers were down, it was a wipe anyway, but that dude could not hit me for the life of him. But that doesn't prove anything about the power of avoidance any more than you hitting a runner-runner straight flush in hold-em proves the power of a suited 7-3 hand.

    I'll wager that most healers don't even notice avoidance on these sorts of fights, anyway. Just ask any tank healer on any fight that threatens the tank...they're not sitting there waiting for the tank to get hit, they're mashing heals regardless because it doesn't matter if the tank avoids 1, 10, or 100 hits you still have to plan everything around the inevitable times when he won't avoid anything or you won't be progressing far.

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