I am surprised to see so few people running avoidance on Deathbringer Saurfang. It's the ideal fight for it (even though, no, it does NOT reduce his blood power gains).
I think the scenario to make avoidence/mitigation start to surpass EH is when you can take 5 successful hits and your healers have a hard time topping you off every hit or face going oom (sound familiar anyone hint this is what they are hinting at for cataclysm). But the way things are going now i have close 40% avoidence in ICC when you caclulate my libram proc and my miss% from defense. The other thing is healers arent looking at health numbers they are looking at bar percentage. It gives them a heart attack if you drop to 1% compared to 5-7%. Hey if they dont go oom its best to make them feel that you have some reserve instead of passing gas the wrong way will keel over.
I am surprised to see so few people running avoidance on Deathbringer Saurfang. It's the ideal fight for it (even though, no, it does NOT reduce his blood power gains).
These threads always end the same way; a lot of people saying 'EH > avoidance'. This has been said a thousand times before though, so it's not really new. There is never any discussion about the numbers like x EH for y% avoidance, even though these kind of decisions are made all the time. If you could exchange 100hp for 1000 dodge rating, would you still not do that? Obviously this is an extremely unrealistic example, but you get the point.
Saurfang is a good fight for avoidance not because it changes the fight mechanics, but because there is pretty close to zero risk of burst damage death, and lowering your damage intake reduces stress on healers that probably have something better to do.
For the record, I take a balanced approach and generally optimize my burst/survival time in a careful way. Believe it or not, this generally still results in large amounts of EH--e.g. Satrina's/Unidentifiable Organ trinkets are still weighted as the best in this case. Using avoidance doesn't mean I'm trading my Satrina's for an Onyxia Blood Talisman--which, numerically, doesn't win out. Generally speaking 15 Stamina is better, even for survival time, than 10 Dodge/Defense rating. However, they are close enough that, numerically speaking, Stamina socket bonuses cause the avoidance gemming to win out in that calculation methodology. This is not the case with items, though, as EH-oriented items are almost always better than avoidance-oriented items due to the afformentioned advantage of the pure item budget being slightly in favor of Stamina (and even moreso for Armor), even with survival time in mind.
My death has not been the cause of a wipe in a very, very long time. (Other than Anub-25H adds, which is a totally different scenario!) Like, not beyond the first week of TotC can I remember it being the case--which we solved not with EH stacking, but with a more logical cooldown/rotation strategy. No deaths really happened after that point. I've tanked everything in ICC just fine with no early deaths that I can remember off the top of my head.
My HP is perhaps a bit lower than some tanks (although it's worth noting if you check my Armory that I am Alchemy, so I gain a phantom chunk of HP in raids when I Flask up) but not amazingly so. Typically a few k compared to the EH stackers, with me ending up with quite a few percentages more of avoidance. This results in a rather non-trivial difference in damage taken as well as the chance of large burst damage occurring--yet I do have enough HP to survive the burst which is happening to me.
Bottom line, really, is that it doesn't make much of a difference. I haven't been the cause of any wipes, nor do my healers complain about me...so things are fine.
Could definitely see if people went too far off the avoidance edge--dropping illogical amounts of Stamina for avoidance, like the trinket example--but provided you weight things generally correctly you should be fine in any case. Then again, EH stackers are probably fine as well, as long as their healers have no trouble with it. At the end of the day, if you wear decent gear and don't gem silly things like +20 Dodge in every slot you're probably going to be OK.
Last edited by Kojiyama; 01-10-2010 at 05:53 AM.
Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!
They end the same way for good reason. In content where it doesn't matter, EH still gets the job done without healer's having mana issues. In challenging content it's been proven time and again that you must value EH over avoidance for burst damage that may or may not be predictable and/or to compensate for incapacitated/moving healers.Originally Posted by Dots
Bottom line is: EH stacking always works, avoidance stacking usually doesn't. Why re-gem your gear for full or even partial avoidance when you're reducing your effectiveness for most encounters, and seeing only marginal (if any) benefit in others?
Exactly.
If avoidance is working for you, it's because the damage intake is so trivial that ANYTHING would work for you.
That's what you got trinkets for. For Deathbringer I swap out my trinkets, use my block set weapon and shield for the avoidance. It's a waste not to do that, IMO.
For Deathbringer though avoidance is just as effective as it is for any fight where burst damage doesn't threaten to kill a tank, you might as well put on a damage set. If you are thinking avoidance could be favorable for Deathbringer it has been shown through various combat logs that Mark of the Fallen Champion procs on every swing, not just when he makes contact and even if that were true how would be block be helpful?
Last edited by krc; 01-10-2010 at 02:43 PM.
Well, I'm glad you and Edgewalker completely proved my point. I don't really care about healer mana by the way, just about the best gearing for a given encounter.
Liar has a good point, rings and trinkets can often easily be changed. Of course it's not required to optimize, you can always just mindlessly stack EH, the difference will never be a big one.
Rings tend to only trade armor for marginal amounts of stam and threat stats, I wouldn't say you get noticed avoidance changes by swapping rings. Trinkets on the other hand will give you a bigger trade-off, but our "mindless" EH mantra would tell the player that usually isn't a good idea.
You can try to character asassinate people who's viewpoint seems overly simplified. The truth is, i wish there were more encounters where it was necessary (or really just encouraged) to deviate from EH maximizing, but this just isn't reality. You can equip your courpsetounge coin whenever and for what ever purpose you like, but that doesn't make it mathematically more effective. Most data on that particular trinket seem to suggest it's easily leap-frogged aswell.
And explain to me what the non-marginal benefit is to that? For one thing, I don't have block, so the best i can do there is wear avoidance trinkets. What's the gain? Why is it not a waste? What was the point?
The thing is, Proletaria, is that one would generally not wear the Corpse Tongue Coin if they are following mathematical benefit analysis of avoidance as it does not beat the Unidentifiable Organ.
Although there is such as thing as EH-stacking, there really isn't such as thing as avoidance-stacking. I have not seen any decently well-informed tank literally 'stack' avoidance, as it serves little purpose and even the math to support the value of avoidance doesn't support doing as such.
What those types of gearing viewpoints do encourage, however, is marginal tradeoffs of EH for quantities of avoidance which are sufficiently high as to increase one's chances of survival beyond the value of the EH being sacrificed.
This actually happens less than one things, which is why the EH stackers are closer to what is being described than the mythical avoidance stackers. Those who would, for whatever reason, choose to stack avoidance in absolutely everything are doing so without the support of the math which even backs up the value of avoidance to begin with. So, in that way, yes...EH stackers will be a lot more successful, and the math would support that as well.
That said, I have had no problem with balanced tradeoffs in situations where I have determined it makes sense to do so. This is primarily in regard to gemmings, and perhaps a few differences in selection of items--however the items with the best EH are, generally speaking, the items which are the strongest anyhow.
As for the point? Well... I'd like to believe that my healers can perfectly spam heals on me non-stop for as long as it takes to beat a boss... but I know full well they can't. They have to move, they get stunned, they get silenced, they make mistakes... So, to me, it doesn't hurt to extend my probability of blocks of survival time when it has a negligible or non-existant impact on my ability to survive the known worst-case burst damage of the boss. It certainly hasn't done me any harm over the last 4-5 years, nor do I expect it to.
(Oh, and again, one thing I feel compelled to mention again... the same logic doesn't work for every class. Due to wildly varying Armor values, health multipliers, etc. the value of avoidance vs. stamina for the purposes of survival time are quite variable. What makes sense for a Warrior may not make sense for a DK. They have very different mechanics.)
Last edited by Kojiyama; 01-10-2010 at 03:09 PM.
Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!
Actually, I don't think it has ever been proven. It has repeatedly been claimed, but not proven, and I'm pretty sure that the underlying model is simplifying things too much. I remember tamral posting an alternative analysis in this post, taking a more nuanced approach (that was back in TBC, but the basic ideas carry over to an extent, minus crushing blows).
I agree with you.
And I agree with this, BUT, between the variance in low-end vs. a maximum damage hit from a boss, class diffirences, the more random vairable such as block, movement of healers, debuffs, etc. etc. are all working against tanks looking for that "magical" EH figure that allows them to survive exactly 3 hits and then invest the rest of their resources into things like avoidance, threat stats, or anything else.
My point is merely this: it is safer overall, for a tank to approach any given encounter with a raw EH stacked set. Healers won't go oom, but they will occasionally have to run from something, get silenced, get impaled, etc. etc. People with a critical debuff may die, someone who is supposed to interrupt may fail. More EH gives them more time to heal when 1 of your 2 healers actually landed a heal.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying armor is something to be avoided at all times. My beef tends to be with those who argue they've got a bead on exactly how much health they need and they are better off with avoidance on such and such an encounter. There are simply too many variables tied to human error to say "i just need" X stamina, Y armor, and from then on I can focus on avoidance or something else and be a superior tank because I balanced my stats.
Rather than this being the same old "EH vs Avoidance" debate, would it be more productive to consider the gear specific tips for each of the encounters?
Maybe not proven in a mathematical theorem posted somewhere. But it's demonstrated every time we run into a boss that poses a significant threat to the tanks.Actually, I don't think it has ever been proven. It has repeatedly been claimed, but not proven, and I'm pretty sure that the underlying model is simplifying things too much. I remember tamral posting an alternative analysis in this post, taking a more nuanced approach (that was back in TBC, but the basic ideas carry over to an extent, minus crushing blows).
That's bolded because its important. People can talk about Saurfang and such and say that avoidance is great there, but he doesn't pose a significant threat to most tanks to begin with.
On the other hand, what did we need a lot of on Beasts 25-heroic (or possibly even Festergut-25)? It sure wasn't dodge or parry.
Yes, it's simplified. We know that. A lot of people lament that fact a lot. And I know it's human nature to think, "Well, that's SO simple, there's no way it can be right." It feels good to think you've put together some magical "balanced" set. People like thinking, "I'm not just another stamina stacker!"
But the fact is that a lot of bosses demand the high EH, no bosses demand high avoidance, no bosses punish you for high EH. Even without the argument of one being better than the other or not, the fact is that one is simply safer and never "wrong".
It's not demonstrated, because hardly anybody ever tries out the alternate hypothesis. They just make EH work somehow.
Several guilds actually preferred avoidance setups on Brutallus. I think he qualified as a significant threat to tanks.That's bolded because its important. People can talk about Saurfang and such and say that avoidance is great there, but he doesn't pose a significant threat to most tanks to begin with.
Cooldowns. Mind you, I've never done the ToGC 25 beasts (only ToGC 10), so I can't speak from personal experience, but I've looked at the combat logs. Nobody expected tanks to handle the impales at maximum Rising Anger through EH, the tool of choice was cooldowns. As to Festergut, he looks like raw EH may not be the best way to go, unless you overgear the place. The maximum possible damage from two consecutive melee hits plus instants at two inhales (it becomes a cooldown fight at three inhales) is right at the border of what you can get (somewhat over 60k), depending on how much ToGC 25/ICC 25 gear you've got. Without SOME avoidance, you'd be pretty much screwed if no significant heal happened to land in between two melee hits and you don't have high-end gear.On the other hand, what did we need a lot of on Beasts 25-heroic (or possibly even Festergut-25)? It sure wasn't dodge or parry.
This all is for 25-player content, obviously. For 10-player content, the case for raw EH gearing is pretty hard to make.
and by role (offtank, main tank). Pretty sure that was the op's intent.
Sure it is. (Not sure how you can just make that blanket statement in fact, since the info on "required" EH is all over the place for different bosses.)It's not demonstrated, because hardly anybody ever tries out the alternate hypothesis. They just make EH work somehow.
People don't try "the avoidance approach" on threatening bosses because folks in those positions generally know better. You just can't make a case for *reliable* avoidance strategies on bosses that threaten tanks.
TBC content.Several guilds actually preferred avoidance setups on Brutallus. I think he qualified as a significant threat to tanks.
Of course you used cooldowns. That's what they're there for. But you didn't walk in there with sub-50k hp and all dodge gems and say, "Hey, I can barkskin through!"Cooldowns. Mind you, I've never done the ToGC 25 beasts (only ToGC 10), so I can't speak from personal experience, but I've looked at the combat logs. Nobody expected tanks to handle the impales at maximum Rising Anger through EH, the tool of choice was cooldowns.
So what would avoidance do there? Let you have even less EH and pray that you ALWAYS dodge 50% of attacks AND that they're spaced out on a perfect hit, miss, hit, miss, hit, miss pattern? Or you could eliminate more of the randomness and make sure you can take more of those hits.As to Festergut, he looks like raw EH may not be the best way to go, unless you overgear the place. The maximum possible damage from two consecutive melee hits plus instants at two inhales (it becomes a cooldown fight at three inhales) is right at the border of what you can get (somewhat over 60k), depending on how much ToGC 25/ICC 25 gear you've got. Without SOME avoidance, you'd be pretty much screwed if no significant heal happened to land in between two melee hits and you don't have high-end gear.
And for reference, 60k isn't right at the border of what you can get. I'm something like 60,400hp fully buffed and I'm not even all that geared. (1 264 piece, 1 251, rest 245, one 232, even a 200!) Granted I'm a bear. But hey, we're great!
And you always have SOME avoidance, as you put it. You never have NO avoidance. Completely unbuffed with chill up I'm still at 27.32% dodge. So that's a pointless statement to make. The argument is really about a reasonably geared tank trading potentially several thousand HP for a few percent avoidance and whether or not that is beneficial.
Especially from a bear standpoint, every point of stamina I lose is a significant chunk. If I were to swap out all my stamina gems for agility and just one of my stamina trinkets for avoidance...I'd lose about 10,800 hp buffed. I'd be sub-50k buffed. Under 50k! That's with one stamina trinket still on too...if I took both off for avoidance? Sheesh. That's another ~2500 off.
I'd be in the vicinity of 47,000 fully raid buffed. I'd probably get laughed out of raids. =(
I hate this argument. Avoidance was ridiculously skewed with no diminishing returns to keep it in line. Gear was perfectly itemized for avoidance, there weren't heavy stamina / armor options that you could use instead.
TBC content is no longer relevant in any argument.
Edgewalker
Dodge Stacking Warrior Tank - World 7th Brutallus Kill
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